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+--- Thread: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS (/thread-61.html)
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Monica Yokubinas - 01-01-2020
(24-12-2019, 11:37 AM)Gavin Güldenpfennig Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Merry Christmas to you all!
I have a question (if it should be in another thread, please put it in this thread). Does anybody of you, if there is any list of the Voynich words or of the most frequent words? I have done some experiments and it turned out, that there seems to be a tendency, which maybe gives us chance to locate the manuscriptes origin and age. I will do some further experiments before I gave you my suspicion.
For now only this: If you think, that a language could be dead, may it lives in the underground. But I have also found out, that it is not Basque, as I wrote some months ago. My old phonetic substitution wasn' t accurate.
I just posted a few on Reddit.com in the Voynich thread replying to Marcop and another. You are welcome to look and see what you think.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Anton - 05-01-2020
Returning to the subject of possible scribal errors, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (MsMurQ 12) is an example of almost the whole line crossed out, since it'd been duplicated in a scribal error. Looks like scribes used to soar high above what they were copying!
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Anton - 05-01-2020
By the way, what's the rightmost word in the fourth to last line, beginning with "4"?
qofane (???)
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - -JKP- - 20-02-2020
(05-01-2020, 10:22 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.By the way, what's the rightmost word in the fourth to last line, beginning with "4"?
qofane (???)
The viewer isn't working for me right now (which is unusual) so I can't see it in single-page or zoom in, but it might be a "p" (as in profan...). Sometimes they joined the serif and the crossbar so it looks like 4o, but it's not. I'll try again later. Hopefully the viewer will be unstuck.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - nablator - 20-02-2020
(20-02-2020, 08:19 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[...] it might be a "p" (as in profan...). Sometimes they joined the serif and the crossbar so it looks like 4o, but it's not.
Yes, pfane ?
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - -JKP- - 20-02-2020
Oh, it's German. I couldn't see it, so I assumed Latin.
Then it's instructions for sifting something (whatever is above the clipped part) and putting honey in a pan. It's definitely a "p".
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Aga Tentakulus - 21-02-2020
yes, definitely "pfane + pfanen" pan.
"und tuas in ein pfane" and put it in a pan
"einem fierdling honigs und tua es den in ein pfanen"
a quarter of honey and then put it in a pan.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Aga Tentakulus - 06-10-2020
Word frequency occurs for various reasons.
1. sometimes they are subject dependent There it simply happens too often for our understanding. Not even one after the other is uncommon.
2. as underlined with blue, the word "oder" means what or.
The green underlined word "ader" means vein.
From the point of view of everything normal. If I now go from Zurich to Basel I have a problem. Here "ader" is spoken and written as "oder".
3. the red underlined word "ader" means the difference in grammar. "audran" is spelt wrong. There the "u" is too much. "adran" would be correct. Now to the 2nd word "adren", that is also correct. It is both the plural of "ader". So it would be "odren & odran" in Basel. Or in High German "adern"
Word frequency can occur for various reasons, apart from a small error, all normal.
"d ader" can also mean the other. Here the context counts.
Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - mscheo - 28-03-2021
Well, I've just finished my first round transcription of the VMS, with many "a/o" and "r/s" marked in red. (Gosh, some of them are really difficult to differentiate.) And whenever I hit a group of duplicates, triplicates or even quadruplicates vords, I marked them in green and wondered - what words could they be?
Duplicates are easier to explain. Besides the is-is, that-that, so-so, it also happens whenever a word (particularly a noun) ends a sentence and starts a new one, like "It has to be You/Elephants. Elephants/You are the greatest."
And it is even easier in Chinese. Here is a quadruplicate:
Chinese : 虽 然 排 列 与 组 合 有 千 千 万 万 , 万 万 不 可 灰 心 。
Pin-yin: Suī rán pái liè yǔ zǔ hé yǒu qiān qiān wàn wàn, wàn wàn bù kě huī xīn.
Meaning: Although the permutations and combinations are numerous, don't ever get discouraged.
Word for word translation would appear meaningless in colloquial English, especially for the last phrase:
万[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]万[/font]=Ten-thousand Ten-thousand, 不可=No Can, 灰=Gray or Ash, 心=Heart.
But from the idiomatic usage of those words in Chinese, it means "Don't ever get discouraged".
The first pair of "wàn wàn" has sort of a numeral indication. But the 2nd "wàn wàn" pair has a connotation of "in any (whatever) situation", that is, the same word-pair and yet, they carry different meaning, though both doubling denotes intensity. If I remove the doublings on the first phrase to 虽然排列与组合有千万,万万不可灰心, the 'intensity' of the probability is reduced from "numerous" to "many". And I got a triple "wàn" in series.
Chinese phrases have many of these duplicates as a form of emphasis or intensity (which can have an increasing or decreasing effect):
请老老实实的告诉我。 (Qǐng lǎo lǎo shí shí de gào sù wǒ)
Meaning: Please tell me HONESTLY. ("老老实实" literally translated means "old-old real-real".)
请一五一十的告诉我。 (Qǐng yī wǔ yī shí de gào sù wǒ) The 'duplicate' occurs after one word, which VMS has several of them too.)
Meaning: Please tell me EVERYTHING. ("一五一十" literally translated means "one-five-one-ten".)
Also, like the English language, Chinese has its share of archaic words that once were meaningful, but now, if translated literally, might have a 'not-so-obvious' meaning or might sound ridiculous.
Like "我马上来" (wǒ mǎ shàng lái). Word-for-word translation is "I Horse Up Come." It once meant "I [will] get up on a horse and come [over]" as centuries and millennia ago, traveling on a horse was the fastest means of transport. The phrase is still in common use, but in today's usage, "马上" now means "asap/now/immediately". How about "马马虎虎" (mǎ mǎ hǔ hǔ = Horse-Horse-Tiger-Tiger)? It means 'so-so', 'passable', 'casual'.
Similarly, I believe Voynichese will have its fair share of (ancient) idioms/figure of speech/metaphor/hyperbole. Unless a Rosetta Stone with Vords is discovered, I doubt the VMS could be decoded fully by one person. Instead, through the works of many, it would come in fragments, dozens of words here and there, then hundreds and then thousands, over the course of time, by different folks. So, along the course of your work, you might have translated/substituted/decoded some vords that seem strange or out of place. Don't discarded them yet. Those vords could be figure of speech or hyperbole that need to be understood in their proper context. Share them here and let everyone tinker on them.
Also, it would be helpful to find out what are the common figure of speech/metaphor/hyperbole used in botany/herbal/medical/astrology in the 14th/15th century Latin world. Any one got any to share?
And so, to all who's still greasing their elbows on the VMS, hang in there, and break a leg.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - ReneZ - 28-03-2021
(28-03-2021, 04:47 AM)mscheo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.How about "马马虎虎" (mǎ mǎ hǔ hǔ = Horse-Horse-Tiger-Tiger)? It means 'so-so', 'passable', 'casual'.
Nice :-)
Thai uses nguu-nguu plaa-plaa which means snake-snake fish-fish, also meaning "so-so" (though only barely passable).
It has been indicated several times over the years that the Voynich MS text shares some properties with Asian languages like Chinese, but the problem is of course how and why Chinese would appear in an early 15th century European MS.
Edit: you may find some related discussion in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., some forty or so messages down.