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Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Printable Version

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RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Koen G - 07-09-2017

Well done, Marco.
Now my naive impression was that such position-based variety was merely typographical. For example, t and T look different but represent the same sound based on its posotion in the sentence.

Emma generally proposes changes in sound based on writing uncertainties.

Now in effect these two possibilities are the same, but it's still an important distinction to keep in mind.


RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Emma May Smith - 07-09-2017

Thanks Marco, that's a great looking analysis.

As you say, this fits well with Transformation Theory. So that a repetition such as [chor chor] in the original text would become [ychor chor] in the transformed text were it at the line start. I don't, however, have much understanding of the line end transformations other than [m]. If you think that you've found some I would be hugely interested.

Also, and maybe a little off-topic, but do were find more phrases if we take into account line end and line start transformations?


RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - MarcoP - 07-09-2017

(07-09-2017, 01:41 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well done, Marco.
Now my naive impression was that such position-based variety was merely typographical. For example, t and T look different but represent the same sound based on its posotion in the sentence.

Emma generally proposes changes in sound based on writing uncertainties.

Now in effect these two possibilities are the same, but it's still an important distinction to keep in mind.

Hi Koen,
I must say that I don't understand how the two possibilities can be the same. While capitalization is the first thing I thought of when I first came to know of the phenomenon, there are marked differences:
  • the Voynich ms is small: if we assume that several characters are typographical variants of other characters, we are only left with less than 10 truly different sounds
  • characters that appear to be added in line initial words are also common elsewhere, not only at the beginning of words (while capital letters are constrained to appear at the beginning of words)
  • but the greatest difference is that in Voynichese characters seem to be added to words at the beginning of a line: the phenomenon is not a substitution like capitalization. 

This last point is supported by the line-start prefix-first quasi-repetitions discussed above, but of course this is not the first time it is proposed as the best explanation of the observable data. See for instance You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..


RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - MarcoP - 07-09-2017

(07-09-2017, 06:20 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks Marco, that's a great looking analysis.

As you say, this fits well with Transformation Theory. So that a repetition such as [chor chor] in the original text would become [ychor chor] in the transformed text were it at the line start. I don't, however, have much understanding of the line end transformations other than [m]. If you think that you've found some I would be hugely interested.

The numbers are quite small, but here are the line-end suffixed quasi-repetitions I found in Takahashi's transcription:

<f19r.P.12;H>      ykchor.chor.daiin.daiinol.
<f44v.P.12;H>      ychey.teol.chaiin.chcthy.ctho.cthol.
<f48v.P.10;H>      tol.chedy.ytedy.ykeol.chdy.chdor.chtol.chdy.ytchedal.cthey.okar.ar.ary.
<f49v.P.16;H>      tchotchey.chokeeodol.rcheey.otchodar.dcho.dchog.
<f50v.P.10;H>      dchedy.okaiin.olchdy.oloeedy.ykeeod.ar.arod.
<f58r.P.13;H>      ytar.sheear.cheoldy.ykeol.cheal.cheody.chal.chaiin.ol.oly.
<f68v3.S.4;H>      okeol.cheoda.qolkeey.ocheky.eeody.okchdy.oko.okos=
<f72r1.S1.3;H>     oaiin.ar.ary=
<f77v.P.13;H>      qokaiin.sheol.ekedy.qokey.qokal.dal.daly.
<f81r.P.22;H>      qotal.chedy.qol.ol.daiin.ol.chedar.ol.oly.
<f88r.P1.4;H>      qokeol.cheol.saiin.cheos.cheol.doleeey.or.cheom.cheomam.
<f88r.P2.6;H>      koaiphhy.cphol.orchor.pcheoly.otchol.oldy.sal.saly.
<f89v1.P1.10;H>    ykeey.ykeey.odal.shoky.okol.chody.okoaiin.dal.chdy.dal.daldy.
<f93r.P.29;H>      dain.ckcho.ctho.cthosm.
<f111v.P.15;H>     rain.sheo.l.otain.qokaiin.al.kain.chedy.otal.lchedy.qokain.chtal.otain.l.ls.
<f115r.P.26;H>     ksheoary.otchey.qoteeos.ar.aiiin.chotchdy.qodair.sheol.pchedy.dal.dalom.

In this limited set, the addition of -y seems to be the most common line-end transformation.

(07-09-2017, 06:20 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Also, and maybe a little off-topic, but do were find more phrases if we take into account line end and line start transformations?

That's an interesting question, but I am not sure I have a sufficiently clear idea of line-initial prefixes and line-end suffixes to try a search.


RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Koen G - 07-09-2017

Marco: I mean that it's hard to tell whether substitution is purely typographical (my initial impression) or whether it reflects actual phonetic changes like Emma argues. I think that there are arguments in favor of both, but problems with both as well. 

The first option is not limited to capitals but might also include flourishes or variants of the same letter, as is often the case in cursive scripts. For example, EVA a and y know complementary distribution (based on their position). Like this, one could see "y" like "a" with a flourish.

I'd also not be the first one to remark that characters added at the beginning of a line might be similar to paragraph markers, making them again related to typography rather than representing a new sound. Normal letters might double as paragraph markers. Punctuation is a similar option of course, though I'm not sure how this would work.

But as you remark, one problem is that the glyph set would become extremely small, making it almost impossible that Voynichese is the result of simple substitution.
A problem with Emma's proposal is, in my opinion, that certain sounds of the language mostly emerge as sandhi effects, making them rare within the core phoneme inventory of the language. The effect of this would be a similar limitation of the actual phonemes of the language, by making some sounds either rare or limited to sandhi effects.


RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Emma May Smith - 07-09-2017

(07-09-2017, 08:29 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A problem with Emma's proposal is, in my opinion, that certain sounds of the language mostly emerge as sandhi effects, making them rare within the core phoneme inventory of the language. The effect of this would be a similar limitation of the actual phonemes of the language, by making some sounds either rare or limited to sandhi effects.

There would certainly be some limitations of sounds, but I think that it only applies to certain positions in words. For example, initial [y] is not so common elsewhere as at line start, though final [y] is always common. Likewise, initial [s] would be strongly linked to line start, but final [s] is more widely spread. The only character which would be removed from the core set is [q], as far as I can tell (though Marco has provided evidence that my original theory about [q] is wrong).


RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - DarrenW - 10-09-2017

I think the reduplication of words in Voynichese might indicate the presence of a superlative expression. A superlative expression acts as an "intensifier" - I struggled to think of a good example in English, the best I could think of was a phrase like "bluest blue" to describe an intense blue colour. I guess that this usage is unusual in English, however, this construction appears often in written Semitic and Persian texts and especially in religious and magical writings. This might also explain the triple repetitions that have been reported.

Here are some examples from the Tanakh/Old Testament and New Testament:
  • King of Kings [1 Timothy 6:15] [Revelation 19:16] [Ezra 7:12] [Daniel 2:37] [Ezekiel 26:7]
    transliterated Hebrew:  melek mĕlakîm
  • (Your) God is a God of gods [Daniel 2:47]
    transliterated : elahin elah elaha chovn
  • God of gods [Deuteronomy 10:17] [Psalm 136:2] [Daniel 11:36]
    transliterated Hebrew : elōhê ha-elōhîm
  • Lord of Lords [Deuteronomy 10:17] [1 Timothy 6:15] [Revelation 17:14] [Revelation 19:16 ] [Psalm 136:3] [Psalm 136:26]
    transliterated Hebrew : adōnê ha-adōnîm

Here are other sample verses with similar constructions -
  • "the King of the King of Kings" (Melech Malchei HaMelachim) used in a prayer when leaving the synagogue.
  • LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods [Joshua 22:22]

Some other common superlative expressions include : Holy of Holies, Song of Songs etc.

These expressions are not just found in Hebrew. For example, the superlative expression "King of Kings" (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
is similarly written in Persian and other Semitic languages.

Assyrian : šar šarrāni
Hebrew : melek mĕlakîm
Old Persian : Xšâyathiya Xšâyathiyânâm
Middle Persian : shâhân shâh
New Persian : Shahanshah


RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - MarcoP - 13-09-2017

Thank you, Darren!
I think it is likely that the repetition alters the "intensity" of the meaning of the repeated word, underlining or attenuating it.

The Hebrew ha- seems an interesting parallel for q-. Does "ha" mean "of" in Hebraic?

An interesting aspect of q- is that it appears in different positions. This is particularly clear in triple quasi-repetitions like these:

<f75r.P.45;H>      sshedy.shckhy.qokey.okedy.sorol.oty.otedy.qotedy.otedy.okaiin.
<f99v.P3.11c;H>    olcheey.qokeol.okeol.okeol.shokol.
<f108v.P.8;H>      ysheedy.okeedy.oteedy.qokeedy.okeedy.okeedy.chedal.okair.qoteedar.aty.
<f31r.P.10;H>      tol.shso.okedy.okedy.qokedy.qokeedy.dar.shedshey.
<f84v.P.12;H>      dshey.olkchy.dol.ol.otedy.okedy.okedy.qokedy.dol.dar.ol.chedy.sain.


As you can see, q- can appear in any one of the three repetitions. Or also (famously) in all of them:

<f75r.P.13;H>      pchedy.keedy.qokedy.qokedy.qokedy.qokedy.qokain.olshedy.
<f79v.P.19;H>      ykail.shy.qolar.shey.qokedy.qokedy.qokedy.dar.olkain.cham.
<f108v.P.39;H>     daiin.sheeal.qokeedy.qokeedy.qokeedy.qotey.qokeey.qokeey.otedy.qotaiin.

q- correlates with repetitions, but of course most of its occurrences don't involve repetition nor quasi-repetition. So it could really be something generic like a preposition. At the moment, I am open to any possibility. 

<f116r.P.28;H>     cheol.lchey.lkeey.sheal.lshalshy.qotalshy.cthedy.lky.chedy.oteedy.lched.
<f116r.P.30;H>     saraiin.shey.qokain.chcthy.okar.air.ollain.okaly=
<f116r.Q.32;H>     olkeey.rain.shey.qor.oiin.shey.ol.lchedy.rshey.qokeedy.chtain.oly.
<f116r.Q.33;H>     soraiin.ykeey.orain.sheeky.qokain.sheey.qol.cheds.ar.r.arsheg.

Of course, cases in which repetitions are frequent, as the texts you presented, are of the greatest interest!


RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - ChenZheChina - 03-10-2018

(05-09-2017, 09:55 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.ฺัBy the way, Thai spelling is quite particular. The above word ngao-ngao is written:
เหงาๆ
The เ is the first half of 'ao'. The character เ is one of several that has to be at the start of a syllable (or word).
The ห is just there to change the tone from neutral to rising.
The ง is the 'ng'
The า is the second half of 'ao'.

The first character pronounced in this case is the third one.
This word is sorted in the dictionary under ห Smile

Hi René,

This is very interesting!

Never thought that letters could be arranged in this way!

Thank you for the excellent example ngao-ngao.


RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Wladimir D - 07-10-2019

I found another version of the explanation, a consistent repetition of words.
This summer, Academician Vladimir Plungyan, as part of a group of linguists, traveled to the Pamirs to study the Shumnan language (100,000 native speakers). The main city is Khorog, Gorno-Badakhshan Autonomous Region.
Here is what he reports on the features of this language.
In the past tense, the endings of verbs are separated from the stem and exist as separate independent words, which can be significantly removed from the verb. Plungyan classifies these independent words (endings) as “Clitics”.
It turns out that if the sentence is enumerating actions (different verbs in the same form), then the endings of each of them can be sequential.
If we apply this feature to the Russian language, then we will get 36 forms endings of the past tense (which is comparable with the number of the most popular short words MV).
And one more thing, if a similar feature existed in the Russian language.
The endings of verbs in the Russian language differ by one letter in case of a change in the verb by gender (female, male, middle gender of the noun with which the verb is associated). In this case, an explanation of the presence in the text of the words with a change of one character appears.
Russian speakers can listen to the interview from 31 min.- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.