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+--- Thread: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS (/thread-61.html)
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Koen G - 06-03-2023
Please keep all Slovenian, Turkic or any other theories out of this thread. This is only about the duplications we observe in the manuscript. If people want to read about any specific theory, they will read the thread about that theory.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - R. Sale - 06-03-2023
The topic of sequential word repetitions in the VMs can only investigate the examples used in the text. Having a longer sequence in another language is interesting, but ...
The VMs text has various examples of sequential pairing, and Anton has summed up the possible explanations in Post #136. There are various examples in natural language where words might be used in this way. The fact that the set of VMs vords found in sequential constructions is rather small, with a fair number of repetitions, seems to indicate intentional use rather that random occurrence.
Interrupted word repetitions are found in examples where sequential repetitions have one or more other vords creating separation. Here there are also various examples in natural languages. And in the VMs again, the set of repeating vords is limited and the examples are repetitive. In addition to which, many vords in this set are also found in the first sequential set. This is somewhat problematic because it appears to restrict the number of natural language examples that will work in both situations.
The situation is further complicated by the examination of the intervening single vord that creates the separation. There appear to be a variety of different vords used for this purpose, rather than a small set of vords used more frequently. This implies that these three-vord constructions are not a few, commonly repeated linguistic phrases.
*IF* the VMS did present a limited number of standard phrases with identical three-vord constructions, it would potentially be worthwhile to examine the vords that immediately precede and follow these examples. However, the negative results discovered so far suggest that the linguistic aspects of this investigation are heading toward a dead end.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - MarcoP - 07-03-2023
(06-03-2023, 12:41 AM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Another explanation - but I think less likely and covering only a couple of pairs - could be down to how we parse the pair. e.g. when we see daiin daiin, are those truly identical, or could the "minim" glyphs represent different plain text letters?
Hi Tavie,
this is indeed unlikely also because the rate of perfect and partial reduplication in the manuscript is higher than in scrambled versions of the text. The scrambled version can be seen as representing "accidental" repetitions. The actual text shows more systematic repetitions: there is something that "pushes" identical or similar tokens next to each other. Repetitions cannot be due to the fact that two words "happen" to be written simiilarly like, say "una mia" in black letters (||||a ||||a): such combinations are possible but unlikely.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - nablator - 07-03-2023
(06-03-2023, 10:26 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The situation is further complicated by the examination of the intervening single vord that creates the separation. There appear to be a variety of different vords used for this purpose, rather than a small set of vords used more frequently. This implies that these three-vord constructions are not a few, commonly repeated linguistic phrases.
This is an intriguing idea... that does not work, unfortunately, if you were expecting this small set of words by analogy with any (?) language.
I tested it on two manuscripts transcriptions whose length is comparable to the VMs: Le livre du chemin de longue estude by Christine de Pisan (ca. 1410) and the Speculum humanae salvationis.
Few sequential repetitions, as usual, a lot more at distance 2, as usual.
Distance-1 (sequential) repetitions are rare, coincidental, they do not reveal any structure.
Distance-2 repetitions are much more common and useful: they identify many function words.
In the French and Latin books the distance-2 repeated words are mostly coordinating conjunctions and other short function words. There are also some infrequent idioms like "day to day". The words in the middle are as diverse as can be. Few occur more than once in this list. The most frequent occur only 3 times.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - R. Sale - 07-03-2023
An intriguing idea, that does not *appear to* work, unfortunately!
The Distance-2 repetitions provide more numerous and more linguistically familiar examples. Theoretically, with the use of numbers (one by one, two by two, etc.), there could be an unlimited number of possibilities for vord-1, but this also implies there is no variation in vord-2. However, this is problematic when there are multiple choices and few repetitions for vord-2.
Other D-2 repetitions can use the same vord-1 and different examples for the middle vord. (day to day, day by day, day after day)
The analogy with "language" is problematic when the texts used are historical standards of medieval literature. The VMs content might not measure up. The VMs text might include various emotional interjections (my oh my, woe upon woe) and could be some sort of historical, religious or superstitious rant, prayer or incantation where these D-2 phenomena occur more frequently. Such structure might present the appearance of something positive, except there seem to be too many differing variations within the limited VMs vocabulary.
D-1 repetitions don't reveal much about the VMs text. However, they do become important in the examples where D-1 and D-2 share the same vords, which happens in multiple examples, despite limited vocabulary in both investigations. D-1 and D-2 are like simultaneous linguistic equations.
D-1 [vord-1 vord-1] combines with D-2 [vord-1 vord-2 vord-1]. Solve for vord-1. Explain the variations of vord-2. Unfortunately, the number of reasonable, potential solutions seems to be well short of the variety of the VMs examples.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Scarecrow - 08-03-2023
I found this quite interesting, even that maybe a bit far-fetched for VMS: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
A Comparative Survey of Reduplication in Australian Languages
Clearly, however, reduplication is most commonly used to mark concepts which may be considered more "grammatical" than "lexical", and in some cases, more "inflectional" than derivational" (Anderson 1985, 1988b, Bybee 1985).
This is not to claim that reduplication will never mark lexical meaning; it clearly does. However, the tendency in Australia is for reduplication to mark productive grammatical meanings.
gulbir a few
gulbi-gulbir around about a few
baamir tall, long
baami-baamir tallish, longish
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Aga Tentakulus - 08-03-2023
I am currently looking for it in a medical book from Basel. I have already read something similar.
In Zurich, for example, "ader ader" ( a der Ader ) = dt. an der Ader. on the vein
In Basel "oder oder" ( o der Oder ) = dt = an der Ader / on the vein.
If now the German word "oder" for ( or ) is placed in front of it, it is indeed "oder oder oder".
I am sure about 2 or in succession. For the third one I have to read the book again.
Rare but possible.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Aga Tentakulus - 08-03-2023
I still have the Alemannic form of "ader" and "oder". "lang" long
Back to E-Codies Basel.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - R. Sale - 08-03-2023
Do examples of D-1 and D-2 occur together? In the examples of the most common shared vocabulary, let's say for vord 'daiin', does it occur that D-1 "daiin daiin" and D-2 "daiin 'vord-2' daiin" are found on the same page?
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - nablator - 08-03-2023
(08-03-2023, 06:59 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do examples of D-1 and D-2 occur together?56 times on 31 pages (with data from daiin.net).