+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Analysis of the text (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-41.html)
+--- Thread: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS (/thread-61.html)
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Aga Tentakulus - 06-03-2023
@Ahmet Ardıç
You actually don't understand.
It's not about forcing any sounds with the help of linguists. It's about being able to explain the system so that everyone can understand it.
What you produce is not evidence. It starts with why the book is supposed to be written in Turkish, without even having a hint of it.
I also don't (normally) try to present any translations if I don't know exactly that it will be understood. No linguist can help there either.
But if you want a translation, then please let me give you one.
This is how "8 8y y 8y 8aiin 8 aiin 8aiin" becomes according to the system.
Or a little more complicated.....
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Arichichi - 06-03-2023
I think dealing with the VM like it was a known language written in an unknown script will just lead to seeing faces in clouds. Sure you see them faces, but what is the point of claiming that there are humans in clouds?
That's why I think the most genuine way to study the VM is to consider that the language has been made up through principles coming from various languages. Maybe there are similarities but all identities need to be considered false.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Anton - 06-03-2023
Let's keep the discussion organized please. This thread is dedicated to sequential repetitions of similar vords, like this:
Code:
vord1 vord1 vord1Anything else: prefixes, Turkish language theory &c &c please have their own threads. If we attempt to discuss everything in one thread, we'll get lost here.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Anton - 06-03-2023
(06-03-2023, 12:41 AM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On topic: Anton, those are some really creative ideas to explain the reduplication, especially the one about ordered preferencing. You're right that it would struggle to hold up against both the number and the range of reduplications, and if it were part of a "solution", it would seem special pleading. But it is an intriguing way of providing a potential explanation for some of the pairs, and also the way some of the manuscript appears to show list-like behaviour. I'm trying to imagine what it could be in the (possible) context of the manuscript: ordered lists of medicines or habits to do each day? Lists of what should be done or should not be done according to astrology?
Once I performed an experiment (however limited) on detecting the narration structure in the VMS, and no traces of it were discovered (see later sections of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. blog post). Since then I have been imagining the VMS not as a consistent narrative, but as a telegraph-style reference book. The idea of ordered listings (perhaps of considerable length) as a significant portion of the VMS would bring this even further from the fluent flow of discourse to what may be described as a line/paragraph rendering of essentially table content. The context, as I see it, would be many-to-one associations, whatever they may be. Examples that you describe fall in this category. There can be many other suggestions, like associations between plants and other stuff (days, planets, stones, whatever).
However, prior to speculating about what these supposed lists may be, it is worth delving deeper into investigating whether the ordered lists is a valid idea in itself, to begin with. I just undertook one interesting experiment, which will take some time because I follow all reduplications manually. I will post the results as soon as I'm ready.
One of implications would be that there are long sequences of the same part of speech.
Quote:Another explanation - but I think less likely and covering only a couple of pairs - could be down to how we parse the pair. e.g. when we see daiin daiin, are those truly identical, or could the "minim" glyphs represent different plain text letters?
Might be, but as you say it would not cover all the reduplication cases. Like, for example, al al leaves no room for manoeuvreing with minims.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - cvetkakocj@rogers.com - 06-03-2023
Hi, Ahmet,
Here is my argument for the use of pre-fixes in the VM. As you can see, I did not need to manipulate any words to get the Slovenian writing I wanted and the meaning I wanted. It is as simple as one-to-one letter substitution. I can do that for the second list of words I proposed. You can ask your Turkish linguist if that pattern shows the prefixes. Surely some of them must know Slavic languages, since the Slavic languages use a lot of prefixes.
As for your claim that you can read the entire pages, this is not a proof that you must be right. Only the correct reading, that generates coherent meaning, supported by grammar and comparison with the medieval use of words and spelling will lead to solving the problem. If you want to disprove others, you should explain better reason then 'you are wrong because I am right'. I have purposely chosen two word that are almost universal, known in slightly different spellings in many languages, which means that they are not exclusive Slovenian.
Words KAL and DAL with prefixes.pdf (Size: 166.94 KB / Downloads: 15)
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Aga Tentakulus - 06-03-2023
What I have now learned about the VM word "daiin".
Using the dictionary, I could easily write "tutis" 5 times in a row and it would still make sense.
Without taking into account that "t" can also = "d".
If I would now also drag "totis" which means all or whole, into the Italian "tutti" for everything. Pure tonal shift. Can I put the word "daiin" 8 times in a row and it would still make sense. Except no one will ever be able to put it back.
So I'll limit myself to 3 uses. " sure, everything, use "
Topic closed for me.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Ahmet Ardıç - 06-03-2023
[quote="Aga Tentakulus" pid='54102' dateline='1678069989']
Dear Tentakulus,
If the texts are written in a natural language, then the texts must be read if it is possible to correctly match the phonetic values of the alphabet characters of these texts. Until the texts are read, details such as what the words in the content actually mean and which of them are prefixes will remain as unproven claims. So the main purpose here is to be able to read the texts. All these efforts mainly by linguistics researchers are heading in that direction. Not many people have yet perceived the readings we have made and the evidence we have presented. The fact is that we read the texts and the content is in Turkish. We present linguistic evidence for the claims we make. This is what scientists who have studied VM texts to this day actually wanted to do firstly.
Linguists will examine the claims made about VM through the given articles, and it will be understood in a while that one of them offers more consistent readings.
Thanks
A. Ardıç
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Ahmet Ardıç - 06-03-2023
(06-03-2023, 08:41 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Let's keep the discussion organized please. This thread is dedicated to sequential repetitions of similar vords, like this:
Code:vord1 vord1 vord1
Anything else: prefixes, Turkish language theory &c &c please have their own threads. If we attempt to discuss everything in one thread, we'll get lost here.
Yep.
Logical
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Ahmet Ardıç - 06-03-2023
[quote="cvetkakocj@rogers.com" pid='54106' dateline='1678112375']
Dear Cvetka,
You see the Slovenian language in the VM content. In this case, If you tell us in which manuscripts such VM-like repetitions occur in Old Slovenian, in this way, we will increase our knowledge about the quintuple structures in Old-Slovenian word repetitions. And I will suggest that you can transcribe one of the 240 pages randomly and write this page in Slovene language from 600 years ago, then translate it into modern Slovenian and finally translate it into English so that we can understand it.
While doing this, please indicate old words in old dictionaries and new words in modern dictionaries as proofs. At the same time, please show this all with supporting examples how the grammatical and phonetic values of the words change in old and new Slovenian lenguages.
When you do this all, let's examine all the content and make a judgment. Let linguists who specialize in Slovenian language do the same, and let us see their comments on your work.
If you do all of these consistently, you can convince the linguists first and then everyone, that the page you are reading is in Slovenian.
That's what we are doing.
The most important detail here is for readers themself to provide the base knowledge that will try to understand whether the information we present is actually real evidence or not about Old-Turkish.
For this reason, we showed evidence that 5 times word repetitions are found in Turkish by reffering academic articles by linguists. In same way, We gave references to the writings of linguists about this type of word repetitions are very intense in the texts and they are seen in all periods of the written Turkish language, except that they are in Old Turkish.
But the most valuable information here is Turkish-specific the word repetitions. In which other language did you see examples of word quater parts and quintuplets? How do you explain this type of structural overlap between VM and Turkish?
So, please you tell us in which manuscripts such VM-like repetitions occur in Old Slovenian, we will increase our knowledge about the quintuple structures in Slovenian if you know about such manuscript.
Thank you,
A. Ardıç
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Ahmet Ardıç - 06-03-2023
(06-03-2023, 04:20 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I have now learned about the VM word "daiin".
Using the dictionary, I could easily write "tutis" 5 times in a row and it would still make sense.
Without taking into account that "t" can also = "d".
If I would now also drag "totis" which means all or whole, into the Italian "tutti" for everything. Pure tonal shift. Can I put the word "daiin" 8 times in a row and it would still make sense. Except no one will ever be able to put it back.
So I'll limit myself to 3 uses. " sure, everything, use "
Topic closed for me.
Dear Tentakulus,
It's not about that you can or can't make up five times same word repetitions in same density in today's languages. The question here is whether you can find similar structure in ancient manuscripts and refer the similarity between the case in them and the VM word repetitions. We showed this for Turkish. If possible, please say the same quintuple is found in ancient texts of any Indo-European language for whichever manuscript.
Thanks,