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+--- Thread: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS (/thread-61.html)
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - pfeaster - 02-03-2023
(01-03-2023, 09:06 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If the author of the book (and for author of any books written in any language) writes prefix by concatenating to a word next to it, that author should write the same prefix in same way in every time. That is, if the prefixes are written separately from the word in that author's language, they should always be written separately. However, if the word is written by concatenating to a prefix, it should always be expected to be written adjacent.
However the author of the VM-texts have been write some parts that you interpret as prefixes, both separately and adjacently throughout the texts. Linguists who seeing prefixes in VM papers must explain this issue.
I'm not at all convinced that the structure of Voynichese words reflects a linguistic structure with prefixes and suffixes.
However, inconsistency in spacing -- in itself -- isn't evidence against the existence of prefixes. During the fifteenth century, spacing tended to be quite inconsistent even in writings in "ordinary" Latin script. It's easy to find documents in which the same expression appears both spaced and unspaced with the same meaning, e.g., "le dict" and "ledict" (in French) or "mit namen" and "mitnamen" (in German). Indeed, I'd argue that the observation that Voynichese sequences with inconsistent spacing (e.g., there are numerous clear tokens of both "or.aiin" and "oraiin") tend also to be found with ambiguous spacing ("or,aiin") supports the idea that something comparable might be happening there.
Out of curiosity, how does your Turkish hypothesis account for pairs such as "ar.al" and "aral," "or.chey" and "orchey," etc.?
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Ahmet Ardıç - 02-03-2023
(02-03-2023, 03:38 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(01-03-2023, 09:06 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Are prefixes written adjacent to the words that follow them (concatenated), or are they written unconcatenated?Hi, Ahmet,
[from an article on Turkish grammar, I copied the following: In some languages, including Sindhi, Hindustani, Turkish, Hungarian, Korean, and Japanese, the same kinds of words typically come after their complement. To indicate this, they are called postpositions (using the prefix post-, from Latin post meaning 'behind, after)... Turkish has no prefixes.]
Dear Cvetka,
I don't know which sources you looked at, but Turkish has prefixes. It is possible to see a lot of erroneous explanations, which are products of information pollution, on the internet. If you allow me, I can make a suggestion to you in this case. Please refer to academic articles only if possible, and confirm information from multiple sources, if possible, rather than from a single source.
Thank you
A. Ardıç
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Anton - 02-03-2023
(02-03-2023, 01:19 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If it really bothers you and others
It really does. It's OK to use formatting for highlighting something in a post, but please don't consider this as an option for standard style of posting regular text.
For bookmarking threads of interest, there's the possibility to subscribe to threads (bottom left in the thread view).
For increasing/decreasing the display size, Ctrl+/Ctrl- respectively do the trick in the web browser.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - R. Sale - 02-03-2023
A thousand pardons, as they say, but isn't the stated topic of this thread "Sequential word repetitions in the VMs"? So, can we stay with that?
Sequential word repetitions are (in other words) pairs. Specifically locating these examples in the VMs text might show that there are differences in the scribe or in the topic. Or perhaps not. There are plenty of options for such repetition in natural language, particularly if repetition is used for emphasis.
nablator said: Post #109
"How do you consider repetitions at distance 2 then? They are even more frequent than at distance 1."
If a vord is represented by 'A'. Then sequential repetition is 'A A' and 'A A A', etc. Are there any triplets in the VMs? Then 'distance 2' is going to introduce a second vord, 'B', to create a structure, 'A B A'. Such structures are found in natural language: 'again and again', 'time after time', 'drop by drop'.
Or it may be that 'A' is a conjunction, like and, or, then - as part of a text that might read: "(composed of x) AND B AND (y)". A summation of these examples would demonstrate the variations, locations and the repetitions of such structures and provide a comparative vocabulary. Are the vords used in the 'distance 2' examples the same / similar to those in the 'distance 1' examples or are they something clearly different.
What is the VMs vord for 'and'? Is there a VMs vord that would be frequent as the 'A' word in "AND B AND", that might also function as the 'B' word in "more AND more"?
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Searcher - 02-03-2023
(01-03-2023, 09:05 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Not involving my asumptions about e, ee and eee, I can propose only "distance 1" solution, as it the most "safe" and strict in this case or on this stage. I agree that looking at Quire 13 it seems to help not much, but it's really a question what will help there. I suppose separate elements of enciphering in the VMs may be simple, contain simple steps, but be complex together.(01-03-2023, 07:16 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I suggested that such repetitions, multiplied words are garbage in the textHow do you consider repetitions at distance 2 then? They are even more frequent than at distance 1.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - nablator - 02-03-2023
(02-03-2023, 07:19 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Such structues are found in natural language: 'again and again', 'time after time', 'drop by drop'.These are possibilities but the difficulty remains to find as many repetitions of diverse words at distance 1 as in the VMs. The repetitions at distance 2 are a lot more frequent in European languages that at distance 1 for all the reasons that you listed. In the VMs they are only a little more frequent.
Or it may be that 'A' is a conjunction, like and, or, then - as part of a text that might read: "(composed of x) AND B AND (y)". A summation of these examples would demonstrate the variations, locations and the repetitions of such structures and provide a comparative vocabulary.
Sequential repetition of vords is only an aspect of local repetition of vords, which is only an aspect of local similarity of vords. They are not separate phenomena: the folio with the record number of sequentially repeated vords on the same line is also the one that has the highest number of lines containing repeated vords (at any distance but on the same line) and the lowest type-token ratio: f75r.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Ahmet Ardıç - 02-03-2023
(02-03-2023, 04:54 PM)pfeaster Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(01-03-2023, 09:06 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[I'm not at all convinced that the structure of Voynichese words reflects a linguistic structure with prefixes and suffixes.]
We have not come across a single prefix in the ATA VM reading study so far. But we wouldn't be surprised if we come across this, because Turkish also has prefixes. The structure of Turkish is accepted as an agglutinative language by linguists in general.This definition should not exclude prefixes because they exist in Turkish, but word suffixes are much more overwhelming in number than prefixes.
[inconsistency in spacing -- in itself -- isn't evidence against the existence of prefixes.]
In fact, not a single linguistic evidence has been obtained that there are prefixes in VM texts. These are nothing more than treating researchers's such predictions as if they had come true.
[It's easy to find documents in which the same expression appears both spaced and unspaced with the same meaning, e.g., "le dict" and "ledict" (in French) or "mit namen" and "mitnamen" (in German).]
I did a quick scan of the "le dict" and "ledict" (in French) or "mit namen" and "mitnamen" (in German) texts you reference, but there is no old manuscript which has any word where has the same prefix was written both as adjacent to and separately from following words in same text by same author in same MS-book. May be there is such manuscript but may be just I didn't see that structure in it.
In other words, I couldn't find any example European manuscript has both structure. This may be just because of due to the fact that the language in which the academic sources are written is not a language that I know, so, probably I did not analyze and search it correctly. But please, if you can present the case of that structure, which is clearly known as you have mentioned, by giving examples in a sentence and by extracting the relevant images from that original manuscript pages as photographs to see all in one single manuscript than I can understand the subject better and we all will see the evidence you mentioned here.
So I hope you can prove what you said because the claim is yours. But even if that happens, a few exceptions, as I said, do not allow us to define the general structure or treat strong probabilities as a secondary assumption.
As a matter of fact, many researches on this platform do not even consider Turkish as the strongest possibility for VM, but the evidence we present provides the most serious and early clear results on VM to date. This is clearly the case, and the majority here, looking at ungeneral exceptional situations (if there is even only one exception if you can show us), seeing them tends to as claims with a high probability of being true and ignoring the evidence we have presented. In other words, it is contrary to the logical approch of science to view the exceptionally rare case as a strong scientific probablity while viewing the strong probablity as small likelihood. The rare probablity shouldn't be more prominent than strong one.
[Out of curiosity, how does your Turkish hypothesis account for pairs such as "ar.al" and "aral," "or.chey" and "orchey," etc.?]
Related your "ar.al" and "aral," "or.chey" and "orchey," specific question;
If you don't mind this, can you please visually break off sentences from the original script and mark these words and add the image and ask again. If you share this from original page photo, I will read and reply according to ATA transcription. Even though I have probably shared these details in my previous explanations, I will explain them once again, no problem.
It would be more useful to ask for different examples by marking the original images line by line and marking these words. Because in order to tell which of the meanings found in the meaning pool of the same root in Turkish is expressed in that line or sentence, it is necessary to see the words next to it.
Let's give a clear example for that the situation is more understandable.
In the Divanü Lügati't-Türk manuscript, which is a dictionary written by Kaşgarlı Mahmud between years 1072-1074, the following meanings are given for the word ER.
1-) unranked soldier, male, husband, man
2-) the device used to make holes, (such as like a punch)
3-) sunny side of the ground facing south
4-) earth (earth and earth surface)
5_) the southern part of the earth, the sunny side
6-) soil
Note: I haven't touched on all the meanings in the semantic pool here because that's not all. According to the dialects, this phonetic structure can also take on some other meanings. For example, in a dialect, there are cases such as the word YER may have taken the form of ER with the loss of the Y sound in the 15th century, since the front sound of the word YER has decreased over time.
For example, you can see some of the meaning contents of the root word ER in this source dictionary > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
In this case, we say in which sense ER is used for a word by looking at that sentence etc (& this situation are same for many other word.) You may be not understand easly this. Not easy to grasp this structure by thinking in an Indo-European language, but Turkish is such a language. For this reason, when we explain your question, the answer will not be short, we will evaluate it with the words next to it.
Thanks,
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - R. Sale - 02-03-2023
Repetition is important. Sequential is one aspect. Pairs separated by an alternate. single vord constitute another class. What are these 'distance 2' vords and sequences most commonly repeated in the VMs examples? Do they show preferences to scribal and/or topical sections of the VMs?
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - nablator - 02-03-2023
(02-03-2023, 09:13 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What are these 'distance 2' vords and sequences most commonly repeated in the VMs examples?Distance 1 (including across lines) in TT_ivtff_v0a:
22 chol
20 daiin
19 qokeedy
14 qokedy
12 qokeey
11 chedy
10 ar
9 ol
8 shedy
8 dy
7 chor
6 okaiin
6 dar
5 shol
5 qol
4 qotedy
4 otaiin
4 or
...
Distance 2 (including across lines) in TT_ivtff_v0a:
32 daiin
18 chedy
17 shedy
15 ol
14 qokedy
12 qokain
12 chol
11 qokeey
11 chey
10 aiin
9 shey
8 qokeedy
...
So it is mostly the same vords in both lists. Exceptions : "aiin" and "shey" in the second list are not in the first.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - pfeaster - 03-03-2023
(02-03-2023, 08:38 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So I hope you can prove what you said because the claim is yours. But even if that happens, a few exceptions, as I said, do not allow us to define the general structure or treat strong probabilities as a secondary assumption.
My claim is based on experiences transcribing documents, and the issue arises frequently enough to be a regular cause of frustration: it can be difficult to know whether to include a space in a transcription or not. That said, it's easier to notice than it is to document and demonstrate. For now, I'll present just two examples I have readily at hand that bracket the fifteenth century on either side. Here's a French document dated January 4, 1399 (old style; modern January 14, 1400), in which we see a phrase clearly written as both "arpens de terres" and "arpens deterres" in close proximity.
And You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.'s a link to a published transcription of a German register with entries for 1500-1503 in which we see "mitnamen" and "mit namen" alternating in different years. Of course these could have been written by different people; I don't have a facsimile. But "mitnamen" is the unexpected variant based on modern expectations ("mit Namen"), and I can provide a facsimile of the first line of a document dated 1489 that clearly runs these words together, suggesting that we shouldn't assume in the other case that this was a mistake on the part of the transcriber.
Not intended as "proof" -- just as a couple illustrations of chronic inconsistency in spacing during this general period.
To bring this back to the topic of the thread, the only factors that separate repetitions such as "daiin daiin" from repetitions such as "oror" would seem to be the length of the repeated segments and the presence or absence of spaces between the repetitions. Could these be manifestations of the same phenomenon?