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+--- Thread: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS (/thread-61.html)
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Ahmet Ardıç - 01-03-2023
Some of the other evidences Are;
There were cases where both did not contain words ending with “/b/, /c/, /d/, /g/”. (Please refer to the phonetic values of the letters according to the ATA transcription in order not to confuse the information given here. Do not confuse with the EVA system variations.)
Likewise, words starting with the letters “/f/, /h/, /j/, /l/, /m/, /n/, /r/, /v/, /z/, /ğ/” (with a few exceptions) does not appear in both in Turkish and in VM texts. (There is a complete words-structure overlap between the Turkish language and the VM texts.)
There are some well-known (few) exceptions to the rule we talked about. For example, words borrowed from other languages such as Arabic and Persian are present in both (as in VM texts and Turkish).
All these have been reflected in the VM in parallel with the Turkish language vocabulary formation.
Thanks,
A. Ardıç
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Aga Tentakulus - 01-03-2023
In German, it's easy.
So the word "aus /out" has an ambiguity.
"aus / out" means of something, whereas the opposite means "ein / in" something. Gang - Eingang - Ausgang. Aisle / entrance / exit.
I can also think of it as an action, Ich schalte das Licht aus. / Turning off the lights.
"aus / off" as a prefix, would be "ex" in Latin, can be written alone, the same in the sense of "of" or "from".
This realisation can be transferred to the VM.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Anton - 01-03-2023
(01-03-2023, 01:52 PM)Arichichi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Can someone tell me what are the good reasons to believe that what was common at the time of writing gives actual clues to decode what is uncommon such as Voynichese?
The foremost reason is that any creator is a product of their own age and culture.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Anton - 01-03-2023
@Ahmet, how do you manage to post your messages in such a gargantuan font? I ventured to bring it to the normal size in a couple of your latest posts, but this involves removing all formatting such as bold, colour etc. I guess you copy & paste, but please use the normal size for your future posts. The "remove formatting" button (letter A with a small Stop sign) will do that for you, and aftrewards you may apply effects such as colors.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Arichichi - 01-03-2023
(01-03-2023, 10:16 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(01-03-2023, 01:52 PM)Arichichi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Can someone tell me what are the good reasons to believe that what was common at the time of writing gives actual clues to decode what is uncommon such as Voynichese?
All YouTube creators should be cheap versions of shows on TV then. I don't think that ordinary rules should be used to deal with the unordinary.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Anton - 01-03-2023
This discourse is not in terms of rules, rather in terms of cultural context and behavioral likelihood. Treating the VMS as something completely alienated from the cultural context of the times won't give us any clues, to begin with.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Aga Tentakulus - 01-03-2023
For a better understanding.
Let's take a look at one side of the plants. Let's just take f27r.
Now let's look at the star map f68r1 and f68r2.
Question:
Why are there so many words beginning with an "o" in an enumeration or naming? If there were not so many in the text.
Understanding something, even if you don't understand it.
The xxx / the yyy and the zzz, for example, are normal, but not in a text.
If I already have the suspicion that it could be an article, I shouldn't try to find a word for everything that begins with an "o".
Beginner's mistake.
Look at everything from several sides.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Ahmet Ardıç - 02-03-2023
(01-03-2023, 10:04 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[In German, it's easy.
So the word "aus /out" has an ambiguity.
"aus / out" means of something, whereas the opposite means "ein / in" something. Gang - Eingang - Ausgang. Aisle / entrance / exit.
I can also think of it as an action, Ich schalte das Licht aus. / Turning off the lights.
"aus / off" as a prefix, would be "ex" in Latin, can be written alone, the same in the sense of "of" or "from".]
Dear Tentaculus,
I forgot to write in my previous comment and I would like to point out here that please do not thought that there are no prefixes in Turkish.
In terms of diversity and quantity, there are probably more prefixes in Indo-European languages. However, in the Turkish language, we see a substantial number of different prefixes in numerical terms. However, these prefixes are in a narrower area in terms of variety of functions. For example, most of the prefixes placed in front of color names which are the most common ones. Example; YEŞİL (green), YEM-YEŞİL / YEP-YEŞİL (means "very green", "dark green"). Here, the first syllable in front is a prefix whether it is written separately or adjacent to the word. There are also various prefixes in Turkish.
Moreover, there were various word suffixes in Turkish texts written 600 years ago and much more earlier than that. Already a whole language structure consists of words created with combinations of affixes and root words. This includes prefixes for Turkish.
I don't know how many prefixes there were in German 600 years ago, and whether they are written adjacent to the word next to it or not.
But it is possible to say that those who wrote them adjacent to the words in old writings and today's writings wrote adjacent to each page. Likewise, those who write them separately write them separately on each page. Here, we can see a word that you assume as a prefix in VM texts, written separately in a word, such as in the middle, at the end or at the beginning. So, if these are prefixes, why did the author write it sometimes separately and sometimes adjacent to it, people who will claim that the VM texts are Indo-European will need to explain this point too.
Some linguists think that the word suffixes and prefixes found in today's modern languages were independent words in the distant past, but over time, they assumed a structural function in the language and became word-affixes by shifting their initial meanings and changing the phonetic value. I personally think this view is correct.
Some elements can be found in German and many other languages, albeit in small numbers. These are what we might call exceptional circumstances. Exceptional situations do not break the general structure or the rule. The main structure in the language is explained and defined by considering general characteristics, not by considering exceptional situations.
If any researcher who thinks that VM-texts are in a natural language is going to claim to have read them, he should explain the general structure before exceptional cases and prove the accuracy of the explanations with linguistic methods. Which included for my VM study too. I have to show this type of approach and I am showing it. In our work, I cite structural overlaps, including grammatical overlaps in many details, and academic publications along with old dictionary pages as evidence for every detail.
I also give references to similar ones from same and earlier periods, written materials to compare. We as ATA team have been able to provide evidences about all of the details to which we refer in our stuıdy. So we provide evidence for every detail. In my opinion to that kind of scientific work should proceed in this way.
Thanks,
A. Ardıç
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - Ahmet Ardıç - 02-03-2023
(01-03-2023, 10:21 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Dear Anton,
Not only in this group, but also in many other platforms in general, and in my own paper-notes, I try to write the articles a little larger.
There are several reasons for this. One of them is because I reference some details in my writings, I use bold fonts and coloring, and it's kind of like a photographic markup. You can think of these photographic markings as placing large and colorful stones or markings in certain parts of a field.
How does this work for me? When I need to go back and find back some explanations I made in a certain article before or page in a certain time and the source references I gave, it enables me to reach the result quickly with the cross-reading technique. In addition, It is easier to read quickly when I write large text and use some colors.If I keep the text small, my eyes can go to the previous line and this makes it difficult for me to read. (I also make more typos when using small font.)
When I want to find the statement I made in a certain place 1 or 10 or 20 years ago, (for example, if I wrote a 750-page book or if I have several hundred comments on 40 pages like this platform one), I can quickly scan the visual pattern of the pages on with knowing in which detail I was wrote them before etc. So I can quickly find any details I wrote in the past. I mean, I'm not doing these things to make your reading difficult or for annoying anyone.
If it really bothers you and others, I will be not do it on this voynich ninja platform no problem. Please all who not perefer to read this kind of writing to read, let the admin know your preference to send me in an email message in this regard to inform me. But my preference is to continue this way if it doesn't bother you and others.
However, even if this platform admin didn^t warn me via private message (if I will remember this my answer for this point in future), of course I can try to send them in normal font every time I remembered this detail you were pointing.
Thank you.
RE: Sequential word repetitions in the VMS - cvetkakocj@rogers.com - 02-03-2023
(01-03-2023, 09:06 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Are prefixes written adjacent to the words that follow them (concatenated), or are they written unconcatenated?Hi, Ahmet,
from an article on Turkish grammar, I copied the following: In some languages, including Sindhi, Hindustani, Turkish, Hungarian, Korean, and Japanese, the same kinds of words typically come after their complement. To indicate this, they are called postpositions (using the prefix post-, from Latin post meaning 'behind, after)... Turkish has no prefixes.
This means that the similar ideas can be conveyed in Turkish by using suffix, or placing preposition at the back, than in some other languages that attach preposition or prefix in front of the word. In many cases, the prefixes were formed by combining preposition with a word to get the word slightly different meaning. In the dictionaries, you can recognize prefixes when you see pages of words starting with the same letter or syllable (like VM EVA-QO). You can see the same words (in the same grammatical form) without a prefix, or with different prefix. Often, a preposition was used as a prefix and when written together, it forms separate word. When it is meant to be a preposition, it is written separately. This was not always so: in the Slavic writing, the prepositions were often spelled together with the next word, then they were separated with the apostrophe.