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+--- Thread: [split] Measure uncertain spaces? (/thread-6037.html)
RE: A Glyph Is Not a Letter, a Token Is Not a Word, a Space Is Not a Space - Koen G - 22-08-2026
(Yesterday, 03:59 PM)pfeaster Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But they also report finding that "certain" spaces tend to fall between their study's learned units, while "uncertain" spaces tend to fall within them. That seems potentially more meaningful in terms of supporting the idea of a hierarchy of "strong" and "weak" spaces.
Thank you for your contributions in clear language, Patrick, I find this very informative.
About these uncertain spaces: the phenomenon you describe here could still be attributed to subconscious split-second decisions by the transcriber, right? The manuscript trains your brain to recognize certain patterns, and as soon as something deviates from those patterns, you have to mark it as uncertain. In my opinion, there is a good chance this effect influenced the results. When transcribing regular medieval handwriting, we need to rely on expected sequences to determine spacing all the time, especially in kind of chopped-up scripts like these. Only, in regular MSS this is non-controversial because we understand the meaning of the words.
So I wonder: let's say we take this crucial sequence of [r] followed by [a], and plot them all according to the distance (pixels?) between the [r] and [a]. Will the no-space variants be all on the left, and the space variants on the right, and the uncertain ones neatly in between? How much overlap is there? Is it a continuum? If this could be measured objectively somehow, we would have a better idea of what space, no space and uncertain space actually stand for.
(Edit: this would actually be informative for other reasons as well, like when we split up by scribe).
RE: [split] Measure uncertain spaces? - Koen G - 22-08-2026
I split this off the conversation here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Basically, Patrick reported that when [r] is followed by [a], there are about as many instances where they have a space between them, as instances where they don't. In addition to that, he also reports that [r] followed by [a] is the pair with the relative highest amount of uncertain spaces.
Put simply, whether there is a space between EVA-a and r or not is not as easy to predict as in other Voynichese glyph pairs, and this coincides with a high amount of uncertain spaces as well. We can wonder whether this uncertainty lies with the scribe, or with the transcriber.
I thought this pair would be good to focus on, and maybe someone could find a machine solution to measure the pixels between each of them. However, when I actually looked at instances of [ra] without space, I realized it would be more complex:
* This is very often in four-letter words like "aral".
* A lot of those [ar] in our transliteration files are actually [or] in the MS...
RE: [split] Measure uncertain spaces? - MarcoP - 22-08-2026
I hope I am wrong, but I think that we currently only have boxes with pixel coordinates for Takahashi's transliteration (thanks to Job's Voynichese.com); while we currently have uncertain spaces only for the ZL transliteration.
I guess that most ZL .-spaces will be spaces for Takahashi too, but probably about half the uncertain ,-spaces will not be spaces for Takahashi (so we don't have coordinates for them). Then the two transliterations will also be different in other ways (as the ar/or uncertainty you mention): mapping one into the other would probably require complex and partially unreliable heuristics.
Rene certainly is the most qualified to comment about the state of the art and the possible approaches.
RE: [split] Measure uncertain spaces? - ololololo - 23-08-2026
This could be a problem with the scribe.
In particular, this problem can be seen in f33v, and it seems to me that the issue lies in the spelling:
RE: [split] Measure uncertain spaces? - nablator - 23-08-2026
(Yesterday, 07:43 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.maybe someone could find a machine solution to measure the pixels between each of them.
The size of spaces is relative: when the glyphs are close together (no gap whatsoever) any small gap matters. When all glyphs are separated by a small space, only large spaces matter.
I have an unfinished transliteration with small spaces (~1/4) , half-spaces (~1/2), normal spaces (~1), larger than normal but less than double spaces (~1.5), double spaces (~2), triple spaces (~3)...
A "normal" space is the same size as the previous glyph.
RE: [split] Measure uncertain spaces? - Koen G - 23-08-2026
To make measurements objective, could a space be measured as a percentage of the preceding glyph, then?
RE: [split] Measure uncertain spaces? - Aga Tentakulus - 23-08-2026
If the same character appears twice in a row (in this case, the ‘o’), you can work out the distance between words.
Using examples like this, you can also work out what it might mean.
(o = article, definite or indefinite) (the, one)
According to my research, it is pronounced (a aut).
(the or) (one or) ( das oder ) (ein oder)