+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Astrology & Astronomy (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-34.html)
+--- Thread: Works containing the degrees of each Zodiac Sign (/thread-6021.html)
Pages:
1
2
Works containing the degrees of each Zodiac Sign - eggyk - 16-08-2026
Hello, thanks to @Pierre Dumont Himself, i was made aware of a few extremely interesting manuscripts from King Alfonso X's Scriptorium with regards to the zodiac. I wish to understand exactly what was being depicted in these and how it may relate to the VMS.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
All 3 of these manuscripts contain a section, seemingly about the constellations, including -but not limited to- the zodiac. In this section each constellation/zodiac sign is placed in the middle of a set of concentric circles, surrounded by the degrees associated with the constellation. This seems incredibly relevant to the VMS, and to date is the only work I've seen that comes close to the VMS style in any respect.
But seperately, I came across a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. from ReneZ in the zodiac 101 thread, linking these to Cod. Pal. germ. 832. This manuscript contains a work that until now I didn't quite understand: each zodiac sign followed by many squares, each containing a depiction of something.
Including cpg832, I have come across 3 sources containing this work:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (and other prints like in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) - Venice, Italy
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1491-1501AD, Regensburg, Germany S)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (~1500AD, Torgau / Wittenberg, Germany E)
Interestingly, the origin of this work is linked to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in Venice, who was a printer from augsburg, but was first active as a printer in Venice (1476-1486) and then later returned to Augsburg. This work clearly migrated north to southern germany and was copied, and then further north to be copied in eastern germany by the turn of the 16th century.
Now, the works from Alfonso's Scriptorium were apparently copied from aramaic and arabic works, with Lapidario (h-I-15) apparently being sourced from an arabic book owned by a jew in Toledo. This was translated into spanish -and had extra content added to it- over a undetermined amount of time (years?, decades?).
The question is this: do these works have a common origin in some way? Are they representing the same content about the degrees of each sign, or were these concepts developed entirely seperately?
If there are more examples of either of these works (including text only!), perhaps it will become possible to link certain aspects of them the VMS annotations.
P.S What should I name this category of work for the spreadsheet? "Zodiac Degrees"?
RE: Works containing the degrees of each Zodiac Sign - JustAnotherTheory - 16-08-2026
The squares are geomantic divination squares. I studied these extensively a few months ago already and posted a thread in the Theories section that they might be relevant for generating Voynichese text.
As it turns out, I was (probably) wrong.
RE: Works containing the degrees of each Zodiac Sign - Antonio García Jiménez - 16-08-2026
I’m glad, eggyk, that you’ve discovered King Alfonso X’s astrological wheels. Erwin Panofsky noted nearly a century ago that they were something akin to the Voynich manuscript.
RE: Works containing the degrees of each Zodiac Sign - nablator - 16-08-2026
(16-08-2026, 03:36 PM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The squares are geomantic divination squares.
These squares are divided in 12 triangular areas (excluding the central drawing area), each for a zodiac sign, not the 16 geomantic figures. Standard medieval astrology, not geomancy.
RE: Works containing the degrees of each Zodiac Sign - eggyk - 16-08-2026
(16-08-2026, 03:36 PM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The squares are geomantic divination squares. I studied these extensively a few months ago already and posted a thread in the Theories section that they might be relevant for generating Voynichese text.
They look like geomantic squares, but there are 30 for each sign, and the text contains a description for the depiction of the degree itself. "The first degree of aries has a sickle in his right hand..."
So something else is clearly going on here.
RE: Works containing the degrees of each Zodiac Sign - nablator - 16-08-2026
(16-08-2026, 04:04 PM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.there are 30 for each sign
One per degree. It's explained on the previous page: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Google translation (bad):
So that those things which are placed in the tables of the equations of the houses of heaven may appear most clearly to the sense. In this second part there are figures of the heavens at the middle of the sixth clime: whose latitude is about 45 degrees verified by twelve houses, to which are placed images of the faces and degrees of all the signs: elaborated by the most excellent man of the faculty of medicine, an experienced doctor, Peter of Abano: in the middle of the figures of the heavens: the properties of the same: the figures and the figures are placed. For first, three images about the beginning of each sign denote the three faces of the supposed sign: each of which comprises ten degrees in itself. And the superscription explains the properties of their faces. But thirty images are placed in the middle of the figures of the heaven: thirty declare the degrees of the sign: placed in the ascending part of each figure of the heaven, and the superscription explains the figures of these images: and the nature of the degrees. [...]
RE: Works containing the degrees of each Zodiac Sign - eggyk - 16-08-2026
I'm aware of that, the fact that they represent depictions of each degree of the sign is the premise of this thread
But is this connected to the 13th century Alfonso manuscripts and the 30 degrees depicted there? Was the concept of 30 seperate degrees -each with their own characteristics- widespread?
These two works are the only ones i've noticed that depict the degrees in this way. Considering the VMS shares this concept of 30 "characters" surrounding zodiac signs (seemingly with their own label or name) it may well be relevant for working out what the VMS depicts.
RE: Works containing the degrees of each Zodiac Sign - MarcoP - 16-08-2026
It’s been years since I looked into this, but Alfonso’s Astromagia BAV Reg Lat 1283 and Petrus de Abano’s Astroloabium Planum are certainly related, though I believe the relationship is an indirect one (one doesn't derive from the other, but they derive from the same Eastern sources, including Albumasar).
For instance, these are the first two degrees of Scorpio.
Astromagia:
1 Figura de ombre con una lanza.
2 Figura de ombre sobrel marfil.
Astrolabium Planum (note that the two illustrations were accidentally swapped):
1 Vir cuspidem tenens in manu sua.
2 Vir sedens in elephante.
Another related tradition which might include illustrations of the individual signs is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Several versions of the man with a spear and the elephant rider appear among the first images for Scorpio. In this text, the origin of the images as fragments of constellations is clearer. The images are not clearly numbered and separated from each other, so I am not sure that each sign includes the 30 degrees (plus, likely, the 3 decans).
EDIT: better scans of the Lapidario linked You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
RE: Works containing the degrees of each Zodiac Sign - rikforto - 16-08-2026
I have been meaning to organize and publish the look I took at this a few months ago! I went through and matched the star descriptions and the Voynichese label and the stone that the Alphonsine manuscript gives.
There is one interesting detail that popped out, though I may have more to add after another look. Either by coincidence or by design, otchody corresponds to Hyades I under certain assumptions about how the two works would match up. This is the word on one side of the much-discussed line between that and the apparent drawing of the Pleiades on f68r3. There is a connection between the Hyades and the Pleiades, namely that they form You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., though I have found little writing on it from the 14th and 15th century.
If pressed, I think this is a coincidence, and the naming of the stars in the VMS must be quite unconventional for this to work. I will organize and post what I have about this, maybe in the next week
RE: Works containing the degrees of each Zodiac Sign - eggyk - 18-08-2026
(16-08-2026, 05:37 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Another related tradition which might include illustrations of the individual signs is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Several versions of the man with a spear and the elephant rider appear among the first images for Scorpio. In this text, the origin of the images as fragments of constellations is clearer. The images are not clearly numbered and separated from each other, so I am not sure that each sign includes the 30 degrees (plus, likely, the 3 decans).
Really interesting. By complete chance, I was adding Bodleian Library MS. Canon. Misc. 554, and the description said it was a partial copy of the frescoes at the The Palazzo della Ragione in Padua.
On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., there is a video where they actually go into detail explicitly about this topic, mentioning that the frescoes in the church seem to be linked to 3 treatises. Amazingly, they also link Reg.lat.1283 to the 1488 edition of "Astrolabium planum in tabulis ascendens". The video goes on to explain at least 1 clear correspondance between both works, namely that the 20th degree of taurus for each is 2 fighting dogs.
But further than that, it turns out these works are almost certainly depicting the exact same sequence of characters. Almost every single degree of taurus matches in both works, with some non-obvious details persisting in both in certain places. For example, note that the 17th degree even has the rope wrapped around the torso of the bull. I aligned them in paint to make the image below:
This -in my opinion- clearly answers whether the two works are displaying the same thing: they are. It's clear that underlying astrology here is the same, and the characters associated with these degrees are also generally the same in most cases. This is opposed to the same concept of 30 degrees being developed seperately at different times.
This does then mean that this Astrology was known and depicted in Italy during the supposed time period when the VMS was created. So it's certainly a work that could plausibly be depicted within the VMS, or at least a work that inspired it in some way.
----------------------------------------------
The video also mentions a third manuscript from the 13th century:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Italy, Sicily, Palermo
1220-1240AD (From Persee, although Bnf states 14th century?)
I believe that this manuscript contains the same(?) images as you posted, but a little more ordered. Perhaps it is useful in some way.