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+--- Thread: This is impossible for a language (/thread-5461.html)
This is impossible for a language - oeesordy - 19-03-2026
No known language produces a 140 to 167 prefixes for its most frequent word. The word would not make sense. If you disagree show the list of words with the language and the prefix in front of that word and it probably does not have to be the most frequent word.
167 Unique values found
(863) [b]daiin[/b]
(60) o[b]daiin[/b]
(44) cho[b]daiin[/b]
(42) qo[b]daiin[/b]
(32) che[b]daiin[/b]
(23) sho[b]daiin[/b]
(21) y[b]daiin[/b]
(16) ch[b]daiin[/b]
(15) she[b]daiin[/b]
(11) cheo[b]daiin[/b]
(9) ol[b]daiin[/b]
(9) to[b]daiin[/b]
(8) oteo[b]daiin[/b]
(5) sheo[b]daiin[/b]
(5) pcho[b]daiin[/b]
(5) po[b]daiin[/b]
(5) oto[b]daiin[/b]
(4) chee[b]daiin[/b]
(4) pche[b]daiin[/b]
(4) opche[b]daiin[/b]
(3) ko[b]daiin[/b]
(3) opy[b]daiin[/b]
(3) ro[b]daiin[/b]
(3) so[b]daiin[/b]
(3) sh[b]daiin[/b]
(3) lo[b]daiin[/b]
(3) pch[b]daiin[/b]
(3) yto[b]daiin[/b]
(3) dal[b]daiin[/b]
(3) te[b]daiin[/b]
(3) tcho[b]daiin[/b]
(3) al[b]daiin[/b]
(3) p[b]daiin[/b]
(3) l[b]daiin[/b]
(3) qote[b]daiin[/b]
(3) ote[b]daiin[/b]
(3) op[b]daiin[/b]
(3) [b]daiin[/b]dy
(3) qoke[b]daiin[/b]
(3) qoe[b]daiin[/b]
(3) oke[b]daiin[/b]
(2) py[b]daiin[/b]
(2) fcho[b]daiin[/b]
(2) dcho[b]daiin[/b]
(2) dol[b]daiin[/b]
(2) oko[b]daiin[/b]
(2) kcheo[b]daiin[/b]
(2) tch[b]daiin[/b]
(2) olch[b]daiin[/b]
(2) olke[b]daiin[/b]
(2) or[b]daiin[/b]
(2) keo[b]daiin[/b]
(2) okeo[b]daiin[/b]
(2) teeo[b]daiin[/b]
(2) okeeo[b]daiin[/b]
(2) teo[b]daiin[/b]
(2) psho[b]daiin[/b]
(2) qoee[b]daiin[/b]
(2) yche[b]daiin[/b]
(2) oee[b]daiin[/b]
(1) cha[b]daiin[/b]
(1) [b]daiin[/b]y
(1) oka[b]daiin[/b]
(1) yo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) qocho[b]daiin[/b]
(1) eto[b]daiin[/b]
(1) shfy[b]daiin[/b]
(1) fol[b]daiin[/b]
(1) chol[b]daiin[/b]
(1) t[b]daiin[/b]
(1) [b]daiin[/b]ol
(1) ctho[b]daiin[/b]
(1) chech[b]daiin[/b]
(1) kal[b]daiin[/b]
(1) ypch[b]daiin[/b]
(1) tolch[b]daiin[/b]
(1) do[b]daiin[/b]
(1) taro[b]daiin[/b]
(1) shep[b]daiin[/b]
(1) psh[b]daiin[/b]
(1) ksho[b]daiin[/b]
(1) chokcho[b]daiin[/b]
(1) dcheo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) ycho[b]daiin[/b]
(1) cpheo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) seo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) qofy[b]daiin[/b]
(1) qoto[b]daiin[/b]
(1) ytcho[b]daiin[/b]
(1) yctho[b]daiin[/b]
(1) [b]daiin[/b]o
(1) oe[b]daiin[/b]
(1) yteo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) opal[b]daiin[/b]
(1) sholfos[b]daiin[/b]
(1) yke[b]daiin[/b]
(1) tae[b]daiin[/b]
(1) oteeo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) oeeeo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) chl[b]daiin[/b]
(1) odee[b]daiin[/b]
(1) daror[b]daiin[/b]
(1) eeo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) o?[b]daiin[/b]
(1) qopy[b]daiin[/b]
(1) pol[b]daiin[/b]
(1) ycheeyty[b]daiin[/b]
(1) [b]daiin[/b]ls
(1) sal[b]daiin[/b]
(1) keeo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) ararcho[b]daiin[/b]
(1) chto[b]daiin[/b]
(1) opo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) ocheo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) cho[b]daiin[/b]dy
(1) qofch[b]daiin[/b]
(1) kche[b]daiin[/b]
(1) ???[b]daiin[/b]
(1) shol[b]daiin[/b]
(1) doleo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) fo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) se[b]daiin[/b]
(1) lkeo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) qokcheo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) qoteo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) eeeo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) cheot[b]daiin[/b]
(1) qop[b]daiin[/b]
(1) sotch[b]daiin[/b]
(1) yshe[b]daiin[/b]
(1) tsho[b]daiin[/b]
(1) qe[b]daiin[/b]
(1) cheolch[b]daiin[/b]
(1) ypo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) pshe[b]daiin[/b]
(1) lee[b]daiin[/b]
(1) lote[b]daiin[/b]
(1) cheee[b]daiin[/b]
(1) okee[b]daiin[/b]
(1) ykee[b]daiin[/b]
(1) qotee[b]daiin[/b]
(1) qoch[b]daiin[/b]
(1) qopche[b]daiin[/b]
(1) sheeo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) kch[b]daiin[/b]
(1) lsh[b]daiin[/b]
(1) pcheo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) cheodoii[b]daiin[/b]
(1) otchee[b]daiin[/b]
(1) okche[b]daiin[/b]
(1) qokee[b]daiin[/b]
(1) chdo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) qokeeo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) ofche[b]daiin[/b]
(1) chdyp[b]daiin[/b]
(1) tche[b]daiin[/b]
(1) qoko[b]daiin[/b]
(1) ycheeo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) tcheo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) ykeo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) cheoltche[b]daiin[/b]
(1) qeoo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) olche[b]daiin[/b]
(1) oshso[b]daiin[/b]
(1) otcheo[b]daiin[/b]
(1) dche[b]daiin[/b]
(1) ychee[b]daiin[/b]
RE: This is impossible for a language - JoJo_Jost - 19-03-2026
At first glance, your argument about the ‘167 prefixes’ seems convincing, but I think it is based on a category mistake.
According to my hypothesis regarding the Bavarian cipher, what appears as ‘prefixes’ before ‘daiin’ are not linguistic prefixes in the conventional sense – rather, they are combinatorial results of a structured absorption layer, which, for example, might function according to a small set of rules:
o- absorbs the article (der/die/das)
qo- absorbs combinations of preposition and article
y- absorbs verb prefixes (ge-, er-, be-, etc.)
Gallows signs encode consonant classes
Vowel clusters encode vowel quality
These elements combine multiplicatively. A handful of structural rules generate many unique surface signs – exactly what one would expect from an absorption cipher applied to inflected Middle High German.
As for ‘daiin’ specifically: according to my theoretical correspondences (d=s/z/ts/ß, aiin=ein), this yields ‘sein’, ‘zein’, ‘tsein’, etc. ‘Sein’ is the most common verb and possessive pronoun in German. But beyond ‘sein’ as a standalone word, Middle High German features an extraordinarily productive -ein-syllable, which occurs in hundreds of compound and derived forms. Here are examples from my current reference corpora (Ortloff von Baierland, Breslauer Arzneibuch, Admonter Bartholomäus):
Cleine
Kein
Keine
Marein
Obeine
Osein
Seind
Seint
Stein
Steines
Sweinen
Wein
Winstein
Weinstein
aitstein
algemeine
alleine
aufeinander
bein
beine
beinen
beinlin
beinwell
belein
blutstein
cbreinerhande
cherndlein
chlein
Zicklein
darein
dein
deine
deinen
deiner
deines
deins
drein
elfenbein
entreinit
erein
erlein
federlein
fein
feins
gagein
gaissein
gaisseine
gaisseins
galizzenstein
gelein
gemeine
gemeinde
gereinigen
gereinigt
geysseiner
glein
grysssein
guldein
hamatstein
harnstein
herein
hiersein
hinein
hirse
kein
keine
keinen
keiner
keines
keinz
keins
kelbrein
klein
kleine
kleinem
kleinen
kleiner
kleines
kornlein
kummerlein
kuppffrein
latein
lateinisch
lein
leine
leineins
leinen
leinsamen
liechtein
meine
meiner
mitein
miteinander
neglein
naglein
pellelein
peterlein
pilein
poneinem
plein
puchkein
quintein
quitein
rein
reina
reindlein
reine
reinegen
reinem
reinen
reinigen
reiniz
ribesteine
ritlein
salbein
schrein
schweine
schweines
sein
seind
seine
seinem
seinen
seiner
semelein
sirein
stein
steine
steinpheffer
steinwurtz
sweine
sweinem
sweinen
sweins
tanneins
tein
teincken
tennein
tlein
unrein
unreine
unreinen
vein
waiczein
wein
weinbeffen
weinber
weines
weinessich
weinic
weinich
weinpern
weinreb
weins
weintauten
winstein
zerklein
zerkleine
zerkleinen
zinemein
160 words from actual medieval texts, and that is likely far from all that is possible.
Each of these forms, when processed by the cipher’s prefix rules, would result in a different character preceding the component -ein. The 167 variants are not 167 independent prefixes attached to a word – they are the predictable result of a small set of structural coding rules applied to the most common syllable group in the target language.
If VMS were a directly written natural language, the argument would hold true. But that has long since been disproved.
RE: This is impossible for a language - Jorge_Stolfi - 19-03-2026
(19-03-2026, 05:19 AM)oeesordy Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.No known language produces a 140 to 167 prefixes for its most frequent word. The word would not make sense. If you disagree show the list of words with the language and the prefix in front of that word and it probably does not have to be the most frequent word.
167 Unique values found
By coincidence, the English dictionary on my laptop has 167 words that end with 'logic':
logic
genealogic
dialogic
genethlialogic
analogic
...
ichthyologic
myologic
karyologic
embryologic
choplogic
And I bet that 'logic' is the most common of that set. There may be bigger families, but I stopped looking there.
In Spanish and Portuguese, 'antes' is a very common word that means 'before'. But it is also a suffix like English '-ents' and '-ants', so there are many hundreds of words that end with '-antes', like 'estudiantes', 'cantantes', 'passantes', ...
In Italian 'vino' of course is a very common word, but it is also the ending of all nouns and adjectives that end in '-vo' when inflected in the diminutive: 'bravo' -> 'bravino', and also of all verbs that end in '-vare' when inflected in the subjunctive 3rd plural: 'provare' -> 'provino', 'trovare' -> 'trovino'...
Rather than thinking of those examples of yours as "too many prefixes for daiin", think of daiin as a common suffix that is also a word by itself, like 'ring' or 'ally' in English. Then that list will not seem so strange.
In some languages, like Swahili and Navajo, verbs are inflected by changing the prefix instead of the suffix. Navajo has a couple hundred different prefixes for any verb, that are actually composites of several prefixes.
Many of those words in your list may be just two separated word that were written or transcribed as one word. Which is expected to be a common accident when someone is copying or transcribing handwritten text in a language that one does not understand. Do you know the story of the busillis?
All the best, --stolfi
RE: This is impossible for a language - oshfdk - 19-03-2026
Adding to Stolfi's example, I think the most obvious for English would be "in" or "it". They are quite frequent words, and if we list all common English words ending with "-in" or "-it", we'll get hundreds of hits.
RE: This is impossible for a language - JustAnotherTheory - 19-03-2026
How many English language books are there with all 167 combinations of the "logic" suffix, though? I would wager, not many.
RE: This is impossible for a language - nablator - 19-03-2026
(19-03-2026, 05:19 AM)oeesordy Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.No known language produces a 140 to 167 prefixes for its most frequent word
Latin: the word "et" is the most frequent by far. Thousands of words end with "et". Any long text can have hundreds of them. For example Regimen Sanitatis Magnini Mediolanensis has ~150 different words ending with "et".
RE: This is impossible for a language - Jorge_Stolfi - 19-03-2026
(19-03-2026, 09:36 AM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.How many English language books are there with all 167 combinations of the "logic" suffix, though? I would wager, not many.
Maybe one cannot find a good example in English, but in the Spanish/Portuguese example the suffix 'antes' is indeed quite common.
In Latin 'imus' is a common word ("we go") and also a suffix of many words. So is "illum" ("that").
And you cannot count the words that occur only once. The VMS almost certainly has many "spelling errors", maybe as many as one per line.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: This is impossible for a language - Rafal - 19-03-2026
Well, in German over 90% of verbs end with "en".
RE: This is impossible for a language - eggyk - 19-03-2026
Things like "-ly" or "-dly" would get huge coverage too in english. "-lijk" in dutch as well.
I can imagine it being quite easy to find 167+ adverbs in a given language in a manuscript, especially languages which have a very common suffix for adverbs. If it was the case in the VMS too, you would expect many the prefixes of the "daiin" words to also exist seperately either as standalone words, or in words with a different suffix, which I believe is the case?
RE: This is impossible for a language - Jorge_Stolfi - 19-03-2026
(19-03-2026, 03:53 PM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Things like "-ly" or "-dly" would get huge coverage too in english. "-lijk" in dutch as well. e?
But the challenge is to find a suffix that may occur in hundreds of words in the same book, and is by itself a word that is more common than all of them.
All the best, --stolfi