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+--- Thread: 'P' is the key (/thread-5418.html)
'P' is the key - Loose_Spell_9313 - 05-03-2026
Hi everyone, Loose_Spell_9313 from Reddit here,
I wasn't going to hop ship, but everyone got silent over there. It's weird when things get silent on Reddit. Anyway- a brief overview for those who may not have seen any of my stuff over there. Attached are the annotated versions presented as well as links to the original posts.
A few days ago I decided to dive into the Voynich, just as a curiosity. That was when I realized that by viewing the image on the left-hand side of p.67 as a proto-clock, you can (without stretching) arrive at the conclusion that there was a very short ~3.5 hour difference between sunrise and sunset. In my original post, I included calculations for 3-5 hours for safe margin- all of which leave you somewhere in the Arctic Circle.
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I then took a bit of a closer look at the text, in which I analyzed the 'P' ('gallow') as a punctuation as opposed to a linguistic character. I know this is not the first time this concept has been floated, but I do not believe anyone has proposed it in the capacity I have. If they have, please let me know. I don't want to make inaccurate statements here or taking credit for long-standing ideas. By breaking it down by the prominence of 'P', a lingual structure seems to become easily visible with observable frequencies. This methodology is applicable to the entirety of the manuscript without variation.
In conversation to gain a better understanding regarding the conversion in terms of linguistic entropy, I also noted the consistency of '8' with certain characters throughout the entirety of the script, "a", "o", "low 9 (y)", "c-c", and "aN" throughout the entirety of the manuscript. Understanding the '8'->'8bre' in Italian clerical records, I wondered if a similar methodology would work here where the preceding and succeeding character represent different intonations to produce variations of "otto", such as "otti","otte", "ott", etc. It was called into question the consistency of this pairing, so I have attached a comprehensive version of a single page showing both the pairings with '8' and all content body breaks as well.
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There is one error line break in the bottom half in the third line up with the '8aN'. Please disregard that one.
This image is the initial model, although I also made additional variants based on my inability to differentiate a couple & have attached those below as well.
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I also analyzed 'Map with Ship' by Marco Polo, which seems to have revealed some interesting consistencies between the two- and a potentially corresponding page in the Voynich, based on both context and chemical irritant/staining and potentially some corresponding superficial lines. Based on this, I ponder/propose the Polo family as the potential authors of the Voynich, although perhaps later translated by scribes or simply transcribed a copy of a pre-existing body based on the Polos' work. I did elaborate a little more in an additional post as well.
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Anyway, I just thought I would share this here as I was told you might enjoy it. I am willing to answer any questions or explore more, but please be respectful if you choose to engage- that's all I ask.
RE: 'P' is the key - pjburkshire - 05-03-2026
(05-03-2026, 09:16 PM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
A few days ago I decided to dive into the Voynich, just as a curiosity. That was when I realized that by viewing the image on the left-hand side of p.67 as a proto-clock, you can (without stretching) arrive at the conclusion that there was a very short ~3.5 hour difference between sunrise and sunset. In my original post, I included calculations for 3-5 hours for safe margin- all of which leave you somewhere in the Arctic Circle.
I don't understand how you are reading this proto-clock to get times for sunrise and sunset.
RE: 'P' is the key - Loose_Spell_9313 - 05-03-2026
(05-03-2026, 09:54 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(05-03-2026, 09:16 PM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
A few days ago I decided to dive into the Voynich, just as a curiosity. That was when I realized that by viewing the image on the left-hand side of p.67 as a proto-clock, you can (without stretching) arrive at the conclusion that there was a very short ~3.5 hour difference between sunrise and sunset. In my original post, I included calculations for 3-5 hours for safe margin- all of which leave you somewhere in the Arctic Circle.
I don't understand how you are reading this proto-clock to get times for sunrise and sunset.
View each spike/point as an indication of an hourly mark; there are 12 in total like a clock.
--Assuming it functions on 2 twelve-hour cycles (indicated by the Solar/Lunar imagery and the accompanying Mongolian (?) 4-point 'full stop' at the 12 o'clock position)
Now between the 11 o'clock spike and the 2-3 o'clock spikes, the numbers of stars that appear above drops to 1.If we consider the stars as representations as two celestial bodies [I hate this term because it sounds mystical] in the sky, the sun and the moon, the inference then becomes that at between 11 o'clock and 2-2:30 o'clock, there is only one in the sky- while the rest of the hours feature both.
RE: 'P' is the key - pjburkshire - 05-03-2026
(05-03-2026, 10:55 PM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Now between the 11 o'clock spike and the 2-3 o'clock spikes, the numbers of stars that appear above drops to 1.If we consider the stars as representations as two celestial bodies [I hate this term because it sounds mystical] in the sky, the sun and the moon, the inference then becomes that at between 11 o'clock and 2-2:30 o'clock, there is only one in the sky- while the rest of the hours feature both.
There are times when the sun and moon are both visible in the sky at the same time but at night the sun is not visible in the sky and the appearance of the moon in the sky is variable. I think it is a huge stretch to get times of sunrise and sunset from this illustration.
RE: 'P' is the key - Loose_Spell_9313 - 05-03-2026
(05-03-2026, 11:15 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(05-03-2026, 10:55 PM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Now between the 11 o'clock spike and the 2-3 o'clock spikes, the numbers of stars that appear above drops to 1.If we consider the stars as representations as two celestial bodies in the sky, the sun and the moon, the inference then becomes that at between 11 o'clock and 2-2:30 o'clock, there is only one in the sky- while the rest of the hours feature both.
There are times when the sun and moon are both visible in the sky at the same time but at night the sun is not visible in the sky and the appearance of the moon in the sky is variable. I think it is a huge stretch to get times of sunrise and sunset from this illustration.
[i]"There are times when the sun and moon are both visible in the sky at the same time.."
Correct, this would be the 2 stars.
"but at night the sun is not visible in the sky"
Correct, this would be the one star.
"the appearance of the moon in the sky is variable."
You are choosing an example of 1 day/30 days to disprove an argument. The math is not in your favor. [/i]
Edit: Even if the question becomes "what about months where there is no sunrise/sunset in the arctic?" The answer remains that there is nowhere else in the world where the time between sunrise and sunset is 3-4 hours other than the arctic circle.
RE: 'P' is the key - pjburkshire - 05-03-2026
Of course this is only speculation but I think it is much more likely that the 12 divisions on f67r1 represent 12 divisions of the year, as in 12 months or 12 Zodiac Signs, and not the 12 hours of the half day. We know the Voynich Manuscript has an interest in at least some of the Zodiac Signs.
RE: 'P' is the key - Loose_Spell_9313 - 05-03-2026
(05-03-2026, 11:36 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Of course this is only speculation but I think it is much more likely that the 12 divisions on f67r1 represent 12 divisions of the year, as in 12 months or 12 Zodiac Signs, and not the 12 hours of the half day. We know the Voynich Manuscript has an interest in at least some of the Zodiac Signs.
I think this is poor logic. I feel that's taking the meaning from one image and ascribing it to all of them.
There are obviously sequential ones on other folios, almost as if documenting the culture's creation story (in my opinion). This image by itself shows no indication of sequence though.
I think buying into 'it must be the zodiacs' when no verifiable evidence can ever be proven by that, is simply buying into the mysticism surrounding the manuscript. It being a proto-clock is, by no means, a insane suggestion.
The first recorded usage of clocks and their mass usage corresponds to roughly this point in history:
[*]You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: Built a notable, large-scale mechanical clock.
[*]You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: Created the first portable spring-driven clocks (pocket watches).
This is the time shortly before the release of the Catalan (1375) and the Voynich (~1405-~1430), and the development of clockwork continued onward. The amount of time and knowledge needed to make accurate temporal predictions would have taken exponentially longer than 10-20 years, especially with transportation being what it was at this period. Whatever body of knowledge was the foundation for Vick's clock was based upon years and years and years of data. Otherwise it simply wouldn't have worked operationally and a way that is accurate 700 years later.
RE: 'P' is the key - pjburkshire - 06-03-2026
If the people who created the Voynich Manuscript wanted to say, "Hey, we are here in the Arctic Circle!", why not draw a map to show their location? Usually people use maps to show location, not clocks.
RE: 'P' is the key - Loose_Spell_9313 - 06-03-2026
(06-03-2026, 12:12 AM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If the people who created the Voynich Manuscript wanted to say, "Hey, we are here in the Arctic Circle!", why not draw a map to show their location? Usually people use maps to show location, not clocks.
I fail to see how drawing a whole map is more efficient than a solar/lunar encoding of that information, particularly at the time. The quality of geospatial data on maps was not refined enough for any wholesale reliable directions at the time- interpretations of scale and distance varied largely by the author's own determination- historical cartography demonstrates this perfectly. So, encoding (relative) geographic data with stars becomes easier and more reliable- because, again, there's only one region where you'll ever see a day/night cycle so short.
RE: 'P' is the key - pjburkshire - 06-03-2026
(06-03-2026, 12:41 AM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
there's only one region where you'll ever see a day/night cycle so short.
How do you explain all the unclothed nymphs in the arctic circle?