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+--- Thread: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't (/thread-535.html)
RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - MarcoP - 20-05-2016
The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Bodley Ashmole 1511, England XIII Century) represents both the Tiger and the Panther as blue and dotted.
The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is blue as well (while the male Lion is reddish).
RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - Koen G - 20-05-2016
Interesting examples. Could this be seen as another possible indication that the VM figures were copied from non-Zodiac sources?
RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - -JKP- - 09-09-2019
For a long time I've thought of the VMS feline as being maneless, but I took a close look at it again a few weeks ago and now I'm not so sure.
Of course, I was expecting a normal lion mane, if it had a mane (in other words if it was a lion rather than a leopard, for example), but when I took another look at these extra lines, which I darkened a little and marked with arrows, it suddenly occurred to me that the illustrator has added a horse's mane to a feline, which would suggest it was someone who had never seen a lion but maybe was told it has a mane (which to most people means horse's mane).
Either that, or it's a feline with dragon bumps on the back of its neck, but there are bumps on the back of the lower neck also, which is what it looks like when a horse's mane hangs down on the far side instead of the near side.
Now surely the person has seen drawings of lions, and should know the mane comes all the way around but if you didn't understand that's how a lion's mane grows, you might assume it was like a horse's mane with the mane part on the side facing the viewer.
Lions in relief (seen flatter than a full sculpture) were more common than full sculptures, and misconceptions about the mane could occur with a relief sculpture but it depended on where a person lived whether they had seen a full sculpture that could be seen from all sides. I don't know how common they were.
Anyway, there are some extra lines and bumps that don't show up well that might be worth scrutinizing. Is it an oddly drawn mane or something else?
Cheetahs have a slight suggestion of a mane (more similar to a boar than a horse) when they feel threatened and they fluff up, but most of the time it's not very apparent. You would have to know them very well to ever see it.
The King cheetah has a more obvious mane, but it's almost black, it stands straight up, and the King cheetah is a very rare animal, much more rare than cheetahs that are featured on nature videos.
RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - Searcher - 09-09-2019
This is quite that I tried to make here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
to show that the mane presents, but it is too obscure. I think it must be something similar to those examples that is mentioned here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - nablator - 09-09-2019
(20-05-2016, 10:04 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Interesting examples. Could this be seen as another possible indication that the VM figures were copied from non-Zodiac sources?
There are better parallels in Zodiac Leo representations with low discreet mane, tongue out, right foreleg raised, tail up. For example, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1469) and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1450 - 1473).
RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - arca_libraria - 09-09-2019
Lions in medieval art are all a bit hopeless if we want to evaluate them in terms of their naturalism, but there is a visual language that is remarkably stable in the Middle Ages, and based on that I don't think the VMS lion is especially bad. If you have twitter then you might enjoy searching the #notalion hashtag which is where a lot of medievalists post their favourite lions from medieval art.
One thing to note, and to all non-native English speakers I extend my sincerest apologies for this mess: scholarship written in English can be particularly confusing because the use of the terms "lion" and "leopard" has changed, but not everyone uses the most up-to-date terminology. If you are reading about a lion/leopard depicted in a medieval book or on a coin or altarpiece etc., check to see if the author is writing in terms of heraldic symbolism or just regular medieval art. Medieval people knew that lions and leopards were not supposed to be the same thing, which is why they have different entries in bestiaries but in terms of art, they were often drawn in very similar or even identical ways. In addition, the terms "lion" and "leopard" in heraldry have meanings that are more to do with the specific design rather than the taxonomic classifications of the animal(s).
A very rough guide
Older scholarship and heraldry: lion = big cat with face in profile, leopard = big cat with head fully facing towards the audience of the piece
Newer scholarship = try to work out if the intention of the artist was to depict a lion or a leopard, but be aware that tail position, manes, and spots on coats are not always diagnostic.
Link to the Portable Antiquities Scheme (PAS) with its guide to classifying lions: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The PAS is responsible for managing any treasures found in England and Wales by members of the public during metal detecting, building work, or general discovery. The PAS database is huge and I know that the team spends a lot of time thinking about search terms, metadata, and useful descriptions.
Finally, the V&A museum has a post which includes some lions on textiles in their collection that you might enjoy You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - -JKP- - 09-09-2019
I try to call the VMS figure a "feline" most of the time because some people interpret the spots as maybe being a "pard" (leopard) and some feel it should be a lion (Leo) regardless of how the hair is drawn (we don't know if they are intended to be spots).
The extra long neck would be more similar to a cheetah, but the VMS bull also has an extra long neck, so it might just be the way the illustrator drew things. Anatomy was not his or her strong point.
There's a fair amount of disagreement about whether these are zodiacs...
Personally, I feel comfortable calling these zodiac figures based on their thematic similarity to the zodiac series I've blogged about (that originated in France/Flanders and migrated south and east), and their order—there's no way it could be accidental that they are so similar to a subgroup with nontraditional themes—but that doesn't mean the text and figures around them are necessarily related to zodiacs. Zodiac figures were added to many kinds of manuscripts as embellishments, not just calendars and astrology/astronomy texts.
I have more than 550 medieval Leos in my VMS zodiac database and another 200 or so lions in my not-zodiac files. I haven't had time to write them up, other than one blog that barely introduces them.
RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - Searcher - 09-09-2019
(09-09-2019, 04:32 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I try to call the VMS figure a "feline" most of the time because some people interpret the spots as maybe being a "pard" (leopard) and some feel it should be a lion (Leo) regardless of how the hair is drawn (we don't know if they are intended to be spots).Hi JKP and all!
On my view, there are no spots. There are two kinds of the wavy lines: transverse - depicting the hair in general, and lengthwise - depicting the mane. Of course, the lines all over the Leo's body can also mean stripes. I don't exclude it. But, anyway, as much as I can see, they are exactly lines, not spots.
I made a quick sketch (not a reproduction though) to show how I see the initial picture of Leo without paint.
RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - -JKP- - 10-09-2019
They don't really look like spots to me either, it looks to me like a decorative fur texture, but maybe some of the people who say there are spots can explain what they mean (assuming they are still on the forum).
Maybe it's the blue paint splotches that are being interpreted as spots.
RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - Linda - 10-09-2019
(09-09-2019, 06:46 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(09-09-2019, 04:32 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I try to call the VMS figure a "feline" most of the time because some people interpret the spots as maybe being a "pard" (leopard) and some feel it should be a lion (Leo) regardless of how the hair is drawn (we don't know if they are intended to be spots).Hi JKP and all!
On my view, there are no spots. There are two kinds of the wavy lines: transverse - depicting the hair in general, and lengthwise - depicting the mane. Of course, the lines all over the Leo's body can also mean stripes. I don't exclude it. But, anyway, as much as I can see, they are exactly lines, not spots.
I made a quick sketch (not a reproduction though) to show how I see the initial picture of Leo without paint.
I see it your way from the face to the end of the mane. It ends at the dark chip on the shoulder down to the widest part of the torso.Then i see it like shingles, more horizontal, not vertical.
It is very reminiscent of the mountain motifs in quires 13 and 14, including being intermittently coloured blue.
That got me thinking stone lion, with sedimentary head and metamorphic body.
which got me to the Sphinx, which has what appears as an alternative head on the body of a lion.
which got me to the age of Leo, it seems that during the age of Leo the Sphinx faced the point where Leo the constellation marked the solstice and the rising of the Nile.
which is interesting because i already think of this zodiac in terms of ages, as opposed to months.