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+--- Thread: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't (/thread-535.html)
RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - Koen G - 30-04-2016
I'll just drop this here, I found a pretty decent drawing of the Voynich archer by someone on Imgur. Sure weird to see them in a more realistic way
![[Image: p9G9XuI.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/p9G9XuI.jpg)
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RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - -JKP- - 30-04-2016
(30-04-2016, 11:28 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'll just drop this here, I found a pretty decent drawing of the Voynich archer by someone on Imgur. Sure weird to see them in a more realistic way
[pic deleted for brevity]
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Let's see... sleeves not quite right, and not quite the right kind of tail on the hat (I found some that are bulbous and rounded like the one in the VMS) and the booties and trigger for the crossbow are missing but it's otherwise quite good and... I agree with you, weird but also cool to see them depicted realistically. I wish I had time for a project like that. It would be fun to re-envision them.
RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - Koen G - 30-04-2016
Yeah, some important aspects are off. But as someone with no artistic talents whatsoever, I've always admired people's drawing skills.
You know what would be an interesting project? To present a number of artists with the zodiac animals in isolation: bulls, goats and scorpion. And without telling them what it is or where it comes from or which animal it's supposed to be, just see what they make of it
RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - ReneZ - 15-05-2016
By coincidence I ran into a lion (of sorts) with blue dots (among others):
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RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - -JKP- - 15-05-2016
(15-05-2016, 11:39 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.By coincidence I ran into a lion (of sorts) with blue dots (among others):
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Good one, René. Not only spots, but maneless, like a leopard, but most certainly intended as St. Mark. I haven't seen that image before.
RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - Oocephalus - 15-05-2016
JKP:
Quote:Good one, René. Not only spots, but maneless, like a leopard, but most certainly intended as St. Mark. I haven't seen that image before.
This is from a commentary on the biblical Book of Daniel, so these are the four beasts Daniel saw in a vision (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). The one on the upper left is clearly the first beast, which is indeed described as "like a lion", and generally agreed to refer to the Babylonian empire. No idea why it was drawn like that, though.
RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - -JKP- - 16-05-2016
(15-05-2016, 03:20 PM)Oocephalus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP:
Quote:Good one, René. Not only spots, but maneless, like a leopard, but most certainly intended as St. Mark. I haven't seen that image before.
This is from a commentary on the biblical Book of Daniel, so these are the four beasts Daniel saw in a vision (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). The one on the upper left is clearly the first beast, which is indeed described as "like a lion", and generally agreed to refer to the Babylonian empire. No idea why it was drawn like that, though.
Oocephalus, yes, of course you're right. It has four heads and thus is Daniel's leopard (even though it only has two wings in this case, rather than four). Then a lion with eagle's wings, a bear (sometimes with ribs in its teeth), and a mythical beast with ten horns and iron teeth (I didn't recognize the horns at first since they look more like a mullet fringe than horns).
The evangelists are winged lion, winged oxen, eagle, and angel.
On this subject, since the VMS Leo is maneless and has a texture that MIGHT suggest very light spots, I looked around at leopard images and found a couple in old manuscripts that were labeled leon pard and leon pardo, which led me to wonder whether northerners who had never seen a lion might assume, from the names, that a leopard was a kind of lion (a spotted one). I looked up the etymology for pard/pardus and found it is descended from words for panther and tiger.
I'm not assuming the VMS illustrator was a northerner (if the leaf is an elephant head it's a pretty accurate one and the Taurus image is more antelope-like than bull-like) but given the inaccuracy of the animals in many of the bestiaries and that some of them appear to be drawn according to what the name suggests, it may be that some thought a lion and lion-panther were more similar than they are.
RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - Davidsch - 18-05-2016
@Koen Gh.: perhaps a good read would be the archers in my recent blog on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
as i wrote there: "The oldest military formation in the Republic, nominated in the statutes of 1295 were the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."
![[Image: 0a1887207db9ee3862b6ef4209c18390.jpg]](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/0a/18/87/0a1887207db9ee3862b6ef4209c18390.jpg)
Ps. i am still looking for medieval san marino manuscripts You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. here
RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - MarcoP - 19-05-2016
A blue tiger with dots in Bodely You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (England 1300 ca).
RE: Why the Voynich Zodiac - isn't - VViews - 19-05-2016
(16-05-2016, 12:56 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On this subject, since the VMS Leo is maneless and has a texture that MIGHT suggest very light spots, I looked around at leopard images and found a couple in old manuscripts that were labeled leon pard and leon pardo, which led me to wonder whether northerners who had never seen a lion might assume, from the names, that a leopard was a kind of lion (a spotted one). I looked up the etymology for pard/pardus and found it is descended from words for panther and tiger.
I'm not assuming the VMS illustrator was a northerner (if the leaf is an elephant head it's a pretty accurate one and the Taurus image is more antelope-like than bull-like) but given the inaccuracy of the animals in many of the bestiaries and that some of them appear to be drawn according to what the name suggests, it may be that some thought a lion and lion-panther were more similar than they are.
JKP,
the issue of the lion and the leopard goes quite far. There is a wonderful article by famous medieval art specialist Michel Pastoureau (in French, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ) in which he explains in detail the medieval european perceptions of lions, leopards, eagles and bears.
TLDR version: The long, sad decline of the bear as king of the animals coincides with the rise of the eagle and leopard, between the 11th and the 13thC.
Interestingly at this time, there really was no distinction between a lion and a leopard: the only difference in representation was that a lion's head was shown in profile and a leopard's head facing the viewer. Thus, Richard Lionheart's arms were three leopards, and described as such in texts until the mid 14thC.
In the 14thC, the leopard fell out of fashion again, and the Lion became the king of the animals. Pastoureau describes the political reasons that led to the resurgence of Isidore's old opposiiton between the good lion and the evil leopard. In short, the French demonized the leopard as a way to undermine the English rulers. The popular spread of the image of the leopard as evil meant that the English kings eventually gave up the leopard for the more "noble" Lion. In practice, no changes were made: heraldic emblems remained unchanged, only the texts now said "lion passant guardant" instead of leopard (see article, p. 136).
Personal opinion: based on the above, I don't really see much point in trying to decide if the Voynich image is a leopard or a lion, considering that there was not much visual difference between the two for a while. It could be drawn as one but described as the other. So having Leo as a leopard should not be particularly shocking.