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RE: What is special about Voynich plants? - MarcoP - 11-04-2016
(10-04-2016, 08:44 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.- You have red lines in parts of the plants (mostly in Herbal A), and also dotted and dashed lines in some places. If these features show up in other herbals I would like to see them. It seems to me that these features are intended to convey something other than an accurate visual depiction of a real plant.
Thank you for sharing your ideas, Sam!
The first three points are clear to me (and also match some of Koen's observations).
Could you please specify which illustrations present the features in your fourth point?
I guess that one is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., that was discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
RE: What is special about Voynich plants? - Sam G - 14-04-2016
(11-04-2016, 09:06 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The first three points are clear to me (and also match some of Koen's observations).
Could you please specify which illustrations present the features in your fourth point?
I guess that one is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., that was discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
That would be one example.
93r is another example. There are red lines which are especially prominent in the roots, but also found in the stem.
More examples would be 4r, 2r, 13r, 35r, 38v (not a complete list).
2v has red lines in the stem, but they have been painted over with green, so you have to look carefully to see them.
14r is interesting, because the central stem is filled in entirely with red, but the smaller branches only have thin red lines in them, with no attempt to fill them in entirely.
47v is another interesting example, because the top of the root is "highlighted" with a red line, yet we find basically "the same" root at the top of 102r2 but without the red, possibly suggesting that the red is not an intrinsic part of how the root is supposed to appear visually, but may instead indicate an "emphasis" in one case that is not present in the other case.
Good examples of dotted lines would be along the edges of the leaves in 3r and around the top of the root in 45v. In both of these cases the dotted lines seem to be emphasizing a particular type of curvature (though I'm not certain that they actually serve that purpose).
What I would like to know about these features is:
1) Can they be found in other European herbals?
2) Is there some aspect of real plants that these features could plausibly be taken as an attempt to depict with visual accuracy?
If the answer to both of the above is "no", then it seems we have a common property of the VMS botanical illustrations that represents a unique form of symbolic representation (which would seem to imply that whoever composed the illustrations possessed a "botanical theory" of some kind, as stated in my previous post).
RE: What is special about Voynich plants? - ReneZ - 14-04-2016
These red lines in some of the herb stems is interesting. I don't think they got much attention until now.
The one thing that strikes me is that it is consistent with the word 'rot' that appears to be written in the stem of f4r, while here the red lines were not added.
RE: What is special about Voynich plants? - -JKP- - 14-04-2016
(14-04-2016, 05:38 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(11-04-2016, 09:06 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The first three points are clear to me (and also match some of Koen's observations).
Could you please specify which illustrations present the features in your fourth point?
I guess that one is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., that was discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
That would be one example.
93r is another example. There are red lines which are especially prominent in the roots, but also found in the stem.
More examples would be 4r, 2r, 13r, 35r, 38v (not a complete list).
2v has red lines in the stem, but they have been painted over with green, so you have to look carefully to see them.
14r is interesting, because the central stem is filled in entirely with red, but the smaller branches only have thin red lines in them, with no attempt to fill them in entirely.
47v is another interesting example, because the top of the root is "highlighted" with a red line, yet we find basically "the same" root at the top of 102r2 but without the red, possibly suggesting that the red is not an intrinsic part of how the root is supposed to appear visually, but may instead indicate an "emphasis" in one case that is not present in the other case.
Good examples of dotted lines would be along the edges of the leaves in 3r and around the top of the root in 45v. In both of these cases the dotted lines seem to be emphasizing a particular type of curvature (though I'm not certain that they actually serve that purpose).
What I would like to know about these features is:
1) Can they be found in other European herbals?
2) Is there some aspect of real plants that these features could plausibly be taken as an attempt to depict with visual accuracy?
If the answer to both of the above is "no", then it seems we have a common property of the VMS botanical illustrations that represents a unique form of symbolic representation (which would seem to imply that whoever composed the illustrations possessed a "botanical theory" of some kind, as stated in my previous post).
Many of the examples you cited above I believe are red or reddish-brown for the same reason the leaves are painted green and the flowers are white, yellowish, blue, etc. That's the color of the plant. Red and reddish-brown are very common colors for stems and roots in the plant world. Sometimes even very bright red.
Do other herbals have red or reddish roots or stems? Yes. Some of them do.
I haven't had time to write up my observations on the way the plants are drawn but in some cases the paint looks like it was slobbed on by someone in a hurry, not the same person who painted others in a more careful way, but there are also some where the "scratchy" paint looks like it was applied that way to create a lighter color (the painter was not skilled at painting but did mix the colors and did try to create in-between colors by sometimes laying it on with a lighter touch). You can particularly see this in plants where the paint has been mixed to create different shades of green.
RE: What is special about Voynich plants? - Diane - 15-04-2016
Sam G. and all,
The 'dots' on some leaves are certainly interesting. By a process of comparison and after making various identifications, I tentatively concluded that they refer to the plant's being valuable for an oil.
I've also come across an old post-comment of Rene's, mentioning a manuscript made in England between the last quarter of the 14thC or 1st quarter of the 15thC ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). The library doesn't show many of its folios but does show an opening (folios 81v-82) with line-drawing and wash images of plants, and one of them has dots on its leaves. The MS is a medical miscellany, but style of drawing isn't exclusive to types of subject-matter, so the congruence doesn't prove the VMS plants medical, though it may suggest connection to English habits.
Other plants in the manuscript have similar forms to what is found in the vms too, but as I, Sam G., and others have noted, the way the roots are treated in the VMS is an important distinction between its botanical drawings and those of the Latin European herbal style.
I'm not sure who first mentioned MS Sloane 335 in relation to the VMS, or if it has often been discussed. Advice on these point would be very welcome.
RE: What is special about Voynich plants? - ReneZ - 15-04-2016
I'm also not sure who first mentioned MS Sloane 335 in connection with the Voynich MS, but I remember when I first saw it, that it struck me as "very Voynich-like".
This was before I had started to look more intensively at medieval illustrated herbals, and now I no longer see it as Voynich-like. The similarity I felt at first sight was probably simply due to the fact that this is something from roughly the same time frame.
The main difference I see with the Voynich MS is that here, with a few even strokes, the draughtsman creates a simple but elegant rendition of a plant. "Every stroke fits" so to speak.
The herb with the dots, in the top left, seems to be 'brusci' which appears in Tractatus de Herbis with red dots.
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RE: What is special about Voynich plants? - MarcoP - 15-04-2016
Thank you Diane and Rene.
I see that the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. identifies the plant (Brusa) as "Butcher's broom". This seems a good explanation for the dots in Sloane 335 (Brussa).
The dots in the Voynich ms certainly deserve further investigation (as well as the red lines).
(15-04-2016, 05:52 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm also not sure who first mentioned MS Sloane 335 in connection with the Voynich MS, but I remember when I first saw it, that it struck me as "very Voynich-like".
This was before I had started to look more intensively at medieval illustrated herbals, and now I no longer see it as Voynich-like. The similarity I felt at first sight was probably simply due to the fact that this is something from roughly the same time frame.
From the two pages that can be seen online, this seems to me an interesting ms which does have something Vonynichish. The fact that roots are not represented is not Voynich-like, but it is peculiar. The style of the illustrations seems close to that of some copies of the Pseudo-Apuleius, but possibly these illustrations are independent. I think that most of these 12 plants could be easily identified and matched with other herbals.
It would be interesting to start a thread on the subject.
RE: What is special about Voynich plants? - MarcoP - 15-04-2016
Thanks again to all those who shared their ideas here!
As Rene wrote, the illustration in the Voynich manuscript appear to be less accurate than those in other herbals (even if some examples of the Pseudo-Apuleius are so much simplified that it is difficult to tell how accurate they are). This characteristic is quite evident, but I will try to ignore it as much as possible, since I think it depends more on the skill of the artist rather than on the will of the author (who of course might have been the same person).
I have tried to summarize your observations and mine:
- Root shape
In that thread, Oocephalus wrote that “in many plants, the stem is separated from the root by a horizontal line”. According to his analysis, about 30% of the plants in the first section of the manuscript (f1-57) present this feature in a greater or smaller extent (one of the plants compared with other manuscripts in the first post above, f5v, is included in his list).
This feature also occurs in other herbals, but it is very rare. In the alchemical herbals, it only occurs in very few of the 98 plants, e.g.: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
If I remember correctly, Segre Rutz explains this anomaly by the fact that the roots of these plants were usually sold separately.
Here are other two examples of three-dimensional roots from Cadamosto's herbal in Vienna and from another XV Century Italian herbal that Rene brought to my attention (Wellcome Library ms.336): they do not present the flat top that appears in Voynich illustrations and the two “alchemical” plants.
- Root size
- Asymmetry
This feature seems to me to also have an impact on the shape of the leaves. Ancient herbals were subject to a process of simplification and schematization. For instance, Malva Officinalis has palmate leaves, but three of the herbals included here represent the leaves with simpler shapes. In the Voynich ms some kind of anti-schematization seems to occur: plant You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has palmate leaves, but most leaves have four lobes (which is certainly not frequent in nature) and no two leaves look exactly the same.
Similarly, if we compare the leaves in Voynich You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. with Papaver/Poppy or the Reseda illustration posted by Ellie, the shapes of Voynich leaves are much more irregular.
- Mechanical / unnatural traits. See also “Root shape” above.
Sam: “The plant illustrations in the VMS, or at least some of them, seem to emphasize how the parts of the plants are connected - how the leaf connects to the branch, how the shoot system and root system connect, etc. We can see that it is important because the illustrator does it differently on each plant, and the interconnections often look unnatural or mechanical.”
Oocephalus in another thread mentioned that Nick Pelling put forward the hypothesis that some plants “are actually hidden drawings of machines.”
I think these observations are correct. This could be the same phenomenon that is more frequently and clearly observed in the connections between roots and stem.
- Three-quarter view of flowers and fruits
Voynich plant You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. also is three dimensional, with the ellipses on the tips of the pods likely representing circles seen in three-quarter view.
In the Voynich manuscript, about half of the flowers and fruits exhibit an attempt to represent a three-dimensional shape, sometimes with a strange mix of “from the top” and “profile” views. At least, this is how I interpret f5v. The artist has represented three distinct parts of the flower: red petals, blue sepals (?), a white spherical receptacle.
This feature is not special for herbals in general, but it is exceptional for a work dating to the first half of the XV Century. For instance, as you can see from the images on the right, the 1460 ca Cadamosto herbal has given up symmetry, but flowers are still only seen You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Flowers and leaves were represented in three-quarter view in the early Dioscorides Greek manuscripts (Vienna and Naples). As far as I know, the only medieval herbal earlier than the Voynich manuscript to display flowers, fruits and leaves in three-quarter view is the celebrated “Carrarese Herbal” Egerton 2020 (1390-1404). See the flowers of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of this plant I could not identify.
This feature possibly also appear in another herbal from Veneto recently mentioned by Diane (Bellunese herbal British Library You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
In the Voynich manuscript, this attempt at three-dimensionality is much more common in flowers and roots than in leaves.
I guess that the features listed above are not completely independent from each other, but of course it's not easy to say which are related and how.
Similarities with other herbals
A couple of notes about aspects that may seem strange at first sight but are actually common in medieval herbals.
Roots
Sam G noted that all Voynich plants have a root. This is certainly true, but it is also true of most ancient herbals. Roots contain a great part of the substances useful in pharmacology, so they were rarely omitted.
As I think is well known, the zoomorphic and anthropomorphic elements that appear in a few of the Voynich roots also appear in Italian herbals of the XIV and XV Century.
"Flat" leaves
With few exceptions, leaves are bidimensionally represented in the Voynich ms and in other medieval herbals: only one side of each leaf is visible, as if the plant had been flattened on a sheet of paper. This is not the case in the earliest copies of Dioscorides (Vienna and Naples) and in later herbals (starting from the end of the XV century ca).
Manfredus De Monte Imperiali (BNF Lat 6832) is somehow intermediate, since he presents bidimensional images, but providing for many plants both a “top view” and a “profile view” (see “papaver” and “betonia”, for instance).
For the moment, I cannot comment on some of the features proposed by Sam (small dots on roots and leaves and red lines “flowing” between roots and stems). As a preliminary observation, it seems to me that these interesting features do not seem to be as frequent in the Voynich manuscript as those discussed above.
RE: What is special about Voynich plants? - zamolxe - 07-11-2021
(09-04-2016, 06:19 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.- VM adds more unnatural elements, mostly in the roots but perhaps also in other parts.
I have to say I'm not a at all a plant specialist. This is just an observation and must be criticized/scrutinized by professionals.
The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. plant seems to me to be very similar with Cinnamon plant. The roots can represent rolled bark i.e. the product used in confectionery. The below images are from Wikipedia.