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Angles of the 4 lines on the last page: the top line is a separate thought?(!) - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: Angles of the 4 lines on the last page: the top line is a separate thought?(!) (/thread-5163.html)

Angles of the 4 lines on the last page: the top line is a separate thought?(!) - addekallstrom - 21-12-2025

Koen uploaded a new video today (yes!) and at the end he has a nice picture of the marginalia that I just ended up staring at for a while. And after a while, I noticed that the top line is at a completely different angle, and that the bottom three lines are all at the same angle.

As you can see on the picture below, the top line is about as flat/straight of an angle as you would expect from someone writing by hand, it is essentially perfect.

The bottom three lines, all of them, are arched, almost vaulted, rising upwards towards the middle of the page before falling downwards again.

To me, it clearly looks like the first line was written at one point in time and the other three lines were written together at a separate time. It could still be the same person or whatever, but such a radical shift in tilting does not change within seconds. The first line is separate from the other three at least in time. 

It could still be the same guy writing "buck's liver for lunch" at 08:00 and then when he clocks out at 17:00 he writes his charm for his pregnant wife or whatever, but you're not gonna get it closer than that.

[Image: Ohn93mS]´

edit: ehh.. why doesn't my picture show?

edit 2: Thank you for explaining how to upload pictures! 
   

RE: Angles of the 4 lines on the last page: the top line is a separate thought?(!) - oshfdk - 21-12-2025

(21-12-2025, 10:23 PM)addekallstrom Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As you can see on the picture below, the top line is about as flat/straight of an angle as you would expect from someone writing by hand, it is essentially perfect.
The bottom three lines, all of them, are arched, almost vaulted, rising upwards towards the middle of the page before falling downwards again.

I'm not sure any conclusions can be made from this.

1) The first line is right next to the edge of the folio, the edge could serve as a good visual aid.
2) The folio is damaged and it's quite possible the vellum has shrunk in places, the bottom three lines could have been much straighter initially.
3) The top line is very short, it's much easier to keep a short inscription perfectly level, compared to a line that goes across the whole folio.

RE: Angles of the 4 lines on the last page: the top line is a separate thought?(!) - RobGea - 21-12-2025

Hi addekallstrom.
there is a loose single quote after your image code. Also that image code does not look like a forum image attachment id.
Choose 'edit post' > "full edit"and there should be a box at the bottom where you can upload an image to the forum.

As to the top line being written at a different time, totally possible , as you say the top line is straight and the other lines have a pronounced curve,
there is also a big space between the top line and the second line.

RE: Angles of the 4 lines on the last page: the top line is a separate thought?(!) - RobGea - 21-12-2025

(21-12-2025, 11:07 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1) The first line is right next to the edge of the folio, the edge could serve as a good visual aid.
Note that the top edge of this folio has been badly trimmed, though that does not invalidate the point that the top edge could serve as a visual aid.
And when did the trimming occur, before or after the text was written? ( i would say after because the trim is sooo close to the loop top of the 'b' and 'l' shaped letters ).

RE: Angles of the 4 lines on the last page: the top line is a separate thought?(!) - nablator - 22-12-2025

(21-12-2025, 10:23 PM)addekallstrom Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.edit: ehh.. why doesn't my picture show?

Because you need to link the image, not the page. Like this:
[Image: qrO1SBP.png]

RE: Angles of the 4 lines on the last page: the top line is a separate thought?(!) - addekallstrom - 22-12-2025

(21-12-2025, 11:07 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(21-12-2025, 10:23 PM)addekallstrom Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As you can see on the picture below, the top line is about as flat/straight of an angle as you would expect from someone writing by hand, it is essentially perfect.
The bottom three lines, all of them, are arched, almost vaulted, rising upwards towards the middle of the page before falling downwards again.

I'm not sure any conclusions can be made from this.

1) The first line is right next to the edge of the folio, the edge could serve as a good visual aid.
2) The folio is damaged and it's quite possible the vellum has shrunk in places, the bottom three lines could have been much straighter initially.
3) The top line is very short, it's much easier to keep a short inscription perfectly level, compared to a line that goes across the whole folio.

What I would say is:
1. The aid which the edge of a folio gives does not explain both the dramatic shift in how much the angles change. Line 2 is only about 2-3 centimeters below line 1, and yet almost all of "anchiton" would fit below "multos". 
2.  Could be, but I would like to point out that the change within the three lines is almost identical, and yet a shrinkage has had no apparent impact on the first line. I measured it with the ruler in the Windows snapshot tool where the gap is the largest, right round the + in line 1 and the a in abia and a in gasmich, and they were 7mm, 8mm, and 6mm respectively. So they have the same shift, and the top line has essentially 0mm shift.
3. By the end of the first line, all other three lines have already drastically shifted, so it is long enough.

You could have a point on your second argument, but I browsing through the pages I cannot find any other pages in the VM where the topmost line is perfect and just 2-3 centimeters down the line of the text is completely distorted due to shrinkage. 

On the whole, I'd say it is far more likely that two different sets of thoughts are communicated: line 1 and lines 2-4. By the same person, or by someone else. I don't remember Koen saying it in his video but that he sort of a posterio assumed that it is all connected, and I guess that's what I'm trying to argue against.
(21-12-2025, 11:13 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi addekallstrom.
there is a loose single quote after your image code. Also that image code does not look like a forum image attachment id.
Choose 'edit post' > "full edit"and there should be a box at the bottom where you can upload an image to the forum.

As to the top line being written at a different time, totally possible , as you say the top line is straight and the other lines have a pronounced curve,
there is also a big space between the top line and the second line.

Thank you, I got it to work!

RE: Angles of the 4 lines on the last page: the top line is a separate thought?(!) - oshfdk - 22-12-2025

Still I'm not sure any special explanation is needed for the angles on f116v. If you just look at the recto of the same folio, there is a very similar pattern where the first three words of the page are almost perfectly placed on a line, while the rest is very wobbly.

   

RE: Angles of the 4 lines on the last page: the top line is a separate thought?(!) - Jorge_Stolfi - 22-12-2025

(22-12-2025, 06:45 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Still I'm not sure any special explanation is needed for the angles on f116v. If you just look at the recto of the same folio, there is a very similar pattern where the first three words of the page are almost perfectly placed on a line, while the rest is very wobbly.

Beware that the pages were not pressed flat when imaged.  The North edge of that folio is curved suggesting that it bulges out from its mean plane   

So the first line may have been meant to be straight, and may have been straight when written; but it looks curved on the image perhaps because of the warp.  The two straight lines may be (ahem, cough, cough) just pareidolia...

All the best, --stolfi

RE: Angles of the 4 lines on the last page: the top line is a separate thought?(!) - oshfdk - 22-12-2025

(22-12-2025, 07:58 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Beware that the pages were not pressed flat when imaged.  The North edge of that folio is curved suggesting that it bulges out from its mean plane   

So the first line may have been meant to be straight, and may have been straight when written; but it looks curved on the image perhaps because of the warp.  The two straight lines may be (ahem, cough, cough) just pareidolia...

I think this is more or less what I was saying. One cannot make any conclusions from the angles of the lines from f116v. I'm not arguing that the first three words are deliberately aligned on both pages, I'm just using this as a counterexample, that visually this can happen for whatever reason, and it doesn't follow that the first line on f116v was created separately from the rest.

RE: Angles of the 4 lines on the last page: the top line is a separate thought?(!) - addekallstrom - 23-12-2025

(22-12-2025, 08:12 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(22-12-2025, 07:58 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Beware that the pages were not pressed flat when imaged.  The North edge of that folio is curved suggesting that it bulges out from its mean plane   

So the first line may have been meant to be straight, and may have been straight when written; but it looks curved on the image perhaps because of the warp.  The two straight lines may be (ahem, cough, cough) just pareidolia...

I think this is more or less what I was saying. One cannot make any conclusions from the angles of the lines from f116v. I'm not arguing that the first three words are deliberately aligned on both pages, I'm just using this as a counterexample, that visually this can happen for whatever reason, and it doesn't follow that the first line on f116v was created separately from the rest.

Perhaps you could find a better picture to illustrate your point. Because right now you are just showing individual words with tilted angles all over the place, and all of which with the sort normal tilted angles you'd find in any written text.

As you can see from the picture I finally managed to upload, it is not a matter of individual words being titled at random angles: the first line is essentially horizontal, and all other lines are arched in the same way. The picture you sent, if anything, argues against your 1st point that the top of the paper serves as a visual aid since that's where you can see a slight, slight tilt between the red and green lines. Naturally, not at all the same extreme tilt as the arch you see on the final page.