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+--- Thread: Brainstorming: could VMS words have an underlying 3-part structure? (/thread-5111.html)
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Brainstorming: could VMS words have an underlying 3-part structure? - ThomasCoon - 07-12-2025
Hello again all!
I don't have a solution to the VMS and probably won't be offering anything of value here, but I wonder if words might rely on a 3-part structure, and was curious if anyone else has looked into the idea?
We know that some letter-clusters are almost always word-initial, like qok. We also know that some are almost always word-final, like aiin or dy. And others like ee very often appear in the middle.
Could all this point towards a three-slot structure, with different clusters assigned to each slot? Roughly, it would involve a table that looks like this (Note: this is not a finished product; it is just to demonstrate the concept)
Here is an example to illustrate:
Again, not a solution, but has anyone considered something like this?
RE: Brainstorming: could VMS words have an underlying 3-part structure? - nablator - 07-12-2025
Hello,
Yes.
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RE: Brainstorming: could VMS words have an underlying 3-part structure? - dashstofsk - 07-12-2025
Something like this has been proposed by many other people.
For gallow words the structure for the majority of those words is a simple Prefix + Gallow + Suffix. [ You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ]
For non-gallow words I think I can see a 2-part structure. ( I might be able to say more about this when I have explored more fully my hypothesis about non-gallow words. )
RE: Brainstorming: could VMS words have an underlying 3-part structure? - ReneZ - 07-12-2025
The earliest example I have seen of a three-part word structure was by Stolfi in 1997, and refined/improved by himself in later years. For links and references, see Section 3.2 on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
RE: Brainstorming: could VMS words have an underlying 3-part structure? - Rafal - 07-12-2025
Yes, it was suggested since almost the very beginning. See for example: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
But what next?
RE: Brainstorming: could VMS words have an underlying 3-part structure? - Jorge_Stolfi - 07-12-2025
(07-12-2025, 11:31 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The earliest example I have seen of a three-part word structure was by Stolfi in 1997
Actually Mike Roe [no ref, sorry] had already proposed an automaton for generating valid Voynichese words, that implies a three-part structure:
I am now trying to revise and improve the model of mine that Rene cited above. It changed again in many important details. Please stay tuned...
All the best, --stolfi
RE: Brainstorming: could VMS words have an underlying 3-part structure? - Mark Knowles - 07-12-2025
One must be careful with this 3 part word structure model as there are many words which don't fit with it. It is easy to ignore them, but I think it is unwise.
As I am sure others can guess, I think this kind of structure is more a feature of filler words than real words.
If one wishes to construct a universal theory of Voynichese one can't have a model which explains the structure of some Voynichese words and not others.
RE: Brainstorming: could VMS words have an underlying 3-part structure? - Torsten - 07-12-2025
(07-12-2025, 01:48 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(07-12-2025, 11:31 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The earliest example I have seen of a three-part word structure was by Stolfi in 1997
Actually Mike Roe [no ref, sorry] had already proposed an automaton for generating valid Voynichese words, that implies a three-part structure:
I am now trying to revise and improve the model of mine that Rene cited above. It changed again in many important details. Please stay tuned...
All the best, --stolfi
The reference is probably the following email from 1993:
Quote:From gauss!cl.cam.ac.uk!Michael.Roe Wed Sep 22 18:49:17 +0100 1993
Received: by ninet.research.att.com; Wed Sep 22 13:51 EDT 1993
Received: from swan.cl.cam.ac.uk by rand.org with SMTP id AA22704
(5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for <voynich@rand.org>); Wed, 22 Sep 1993 10:49:34 -0700
Received: from smew.cl.cam.ac.uk (user mrr (rfc931)) by swan.cl.cam.ac.uk
with SMTP (PP-6.5) to cl; Wed, 22 Sep 1993 18:49:21 +0100
To: voynich@rand.org
Cc: Michael.Roe@cl.cam.ac.uk
Subject: A word to unlock the Voynich MS
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 18:49:17 +0100
From: Mike Roe <Michael.Roe@cl.cam.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <"swan.cl.cam.:204940:930922174927"@cl.cam.ac.uk>
Status: OR
In a message a while back, Ron carter wished for just one word to provide a way
into the text.
That word could be "OPAE", with its declension OPAE, 4OPAE, SOPAE, it's
variant form OFAE, 4OFAE, SOFAE, and its line-final form OPAJ, 4OFAJ, SOFAJ.
This word occurs rather a lot in the labels in the astrological folios.
``Star'' maybe? Or ``day''? Or some synonym of these in some language...
P and F are dividing bars separating inflection from the noun. At a guess,
O- = nominative, 4O- = accusative, SO- = dative...
+-O--+ +-R-+
O --+ +--+ +--+ +----+
| +-P-+ | +-SO-+ +-E-+ |
4O --+--+ +--+ |
| +-F-+ | +-C--+ |
SO --+ | | | |
| +-CC-+ |
| | | |
+--+-SC-+--9--------+------>
| | | |
| +-S--+ |
| | | |
| +-Z--+ |
| | | |
| +----+ |
| |
| +-AE-+ |
| | | |
+--+-AJ-+-----------+
| |
+-AM-+
| |
+-AN-+
Mike
RE: Brainstorming: could VMS words have an underlying 3-part structure? - Jorge_Stolfi - 07-12-2025
(07-12-2025, 04:01 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One must be careful with this 3 part word structure model as there are many words which don't fit with it.
Yes. Roe's model was not meant to generate all words, but only a set of words that had high probability of occurring in the VMS. That is, it aimed for high containment in the lexicon, not high coverage of it.
For one thing, it only generates words with gallows, and only t and k.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: Brainstorming: could VMS words have an underlying 3-part structure? - ThomasCoon - 07-12-2025
Thank you all for the resources. Rene's Cardan Grille is the closest to what I was envisioning.
For a long time we have known that many Voynichese clusters are interchangeable: the same letter patterns that follow "qok-" can also follow "shok-" or "ot-". The same clusters that precede "-daiin" usually precede "-dy" or even "-or". One easy way to make sense of this is to hypothesize that Voynich words somehow have an underlying 3-part structure - it's easy to teach to a second Scribe (or three), and the words would be easy to analyze if you know what to look for. But as Mark Knowles said, this only explains a portion of the words - so more work to be done
