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+--- Thread: 70r1 Outer ring (/thread-507.html)
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70r1 Outer ring - VViews - 30-03-2016
Hi everyone,
so I was looking at some astronomy folios and noticed the uppermost/outermost band of "text" in the diagram on f70r1 is really weird.
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...lots of dots, then nine o's then what looks like EVA "lar", five more dots and what might be EVA "rara" (or "sasa"?) then more dots...
What is going on here? Is it a 'title" disguised as a ring of text?
From what I can tell from the "voynichese" website stat tool, "o" repetition doesn't occur anywhere else in the manuscript. "Olar" and "lar" do occur, rather rarely, and as for "rara" and "sasa" they don't be seem to be anywhere else either.
Can Anton's "first vord uniqueness" paradigm help to explain this? It sure looks... unique... if not downright odd.
Or is this line a remnant of partially erased text? Is this page a copy of a partially erased document? Or... what?
RE: 70r1 Outer ring - Diane - 31-03-2016
VViews,
perhaps the guy just ran out of things to say.
Two other possibilities occur to me -
one is that the text from which he was copying had been damaged (e.g. by fire or water) and couldn't be read in that section, apart from a few glyphs. (Interesting argument against it being in cipher, btw).
another possibility - that the diagram shows something like an island (that variation on the "star-fish" sort of emblem tends to mean the highest point, usually geographical) and that no information was available about measures, star-elevations, or whatever else to that side.
One of the ways I know which Voynich writers are good to follow is whether they are content with this sort of hypothesising, calling it a 'theory' or whether they accept it's just a passing fancy and do the solid research needed to discover if there's a grain of truth to it.
I'd estimate that investigating both those possibilities would take at least three week's solid work in a library, and that even so the first is hardly likely to be proveable, either way.
What do you think?
RE: 70r1 Outer ring - Anton - 31-03-2016
There are concentric circles marking this ring up. The upper circle is best notable above sara, while the lower one is best seen at one o'clock. Interestingly:
1) sara is written below the lower circle
2) both circles vanish counterclockwise from the ooo...olar sequence
3) the lower circle vanishes clockwise from 2 o'clock, as if continued by the sequence of dots
Looks like that the scribe had some problems with making these concentric circles with a whichever tool, so he used dots instead to mark them. But that can be only a partial explanation.
Interestingly, there is a shape (barely visible) of the arabic digit "2" (or Extended EVA &192; ) immediately to the left of sara.
RE: 70r1 Outer ring - VViews - 02-04-2016
I wonder if this example could be a giveaway that EVA "o" is a null glyph.
Anton, I've looked at this folio on different websites and really can't see the "2". Maybe it's my screen?
RE: 70r1 Outer ring - Davidsch - 02-04-2016
Yes, that has been my general idea always: the o is a marker or a null.
I looked for it and it is not really a clear 2 but i think he meant this:
![[Image: edge%20f69v_f70r1_f70r2.jpg]](http://ms.webpoint.nl/img/vn/edge%20f69v_f70r1_f70r2.jpg)
RE: 70r1 Outer ring - Anton - 02-04-2016
Thanks Davidsch, that's indeed what I mean.
RE: 70r1 Outer ring - R. Sale - 02-04-2016
What I see behind the glyphs and markings are the parts of two concentric arcs, and in the space designated, there is an irregularity in the outer arc. It looks like a constructional slip or repositioning of the marking device left a few ghostly lines on the page. Maybe it's just an 'oopsie doodle'.
Personally, I've never seen the point of investigating these visually nebulous markings when there appear to be few, if any, productive methods of interpreting the things that the text presents clearly.
In my view, the path to a solution does not rely on things like visually questionable markings, with no regard for the author's intent. The author has made his/her intentions visually clear. Yet, apparently, they remain hidden because they are intellectually unclear to the modern investigator. As exemplified in Stolfi's description of the first VMs Zodiac pages. Heraldry is a topic omitted from that discussion. And that omission is a mistake. Heraldry is a topic with which the educated person, living in the potential time VMs composition, might possess a high degree of familiarity. And as we can see, in the modern age the origins of old traditions have been forgotten. Especially when presented in a medieval way - through the use of heraldry, with a bit of trickery.
RE: 70r1 Outer ring - -JKP- - 02-04-2016
(02-04-2016, 07:31 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....Heraldry is a topic with which the educated person, living in the potential time VMs composition, might possess a high degree of familiarity. And as we can see, in the modern age the origins of old traditions have been forgotten. Especially when presented in a medieval way - through the use of heraldry, with a bit of trickery.
In the middle ages, heraldry defined a person's status in society. It was very important. Customs were so strict that many towns had a "uniform" (national dress) that identified its citizens in addition to totems or heraldic designs. Unlike today, where people dress as they wish (at least in some societies they do) and anyone can draw a design and put it on their car, house or T-shirt, in those days, a person needed permission from the king to wear a banner, or permission from the Guild to hang a trade mark.
Whether the VMS author cared about heraldry for its societal implications or simply created patterns by the same process as they were created for heraldry designs such that they have some superficial resemblances isn't clear. Many heraldry-like symbols were used to embellish churches, monasteries, and universities, and may also have been inspiration for VMS patterns without coming directly from heraldry.
It wouldn't surprise me if parallels to heraldry were found, since it was so pervasive, but it will be a challenge to determine whether they come directly from heraldry and add significance to the text or to the people in the illustrations, or whether they are embellishments to make the pictures (or the task of the illustrator) more interesting.
RE: 70r1 Outer ring - R. Sale - 03-04-2016
If the reason for decorated tubs is to make the illustrations more aesthetically interesting, then many opportunities to do so have been squandered. There are blank tubs before we get to Taurus. All of the Taurus examples are blank. And after that the nymphs stand sans tubs in the all-together. Many more patterns could have been drawn into these zodiac illustrations, if they were there to make things look 'better'. Instead, the VMs Zodiac presents all you ever wanted to know about heraldry and more, in just three pages - Pisces and the Aries pair.
Starting in VMs Pisces, the question of heraldic identification can proceed from example to example. Are the chevrons sufficient? And what can be recognized beyond this? If an investigator does not know the heraldic example of a semy of roundels or other examples of certain patterns and their definitions, then that investigator fails the test of recognition, sees nothing but simple, generic designs and therefore no heraldry. Nothing to investigate and no investigation.
A pattern is generic until it has a name. The examples of gurges and papelonny show that these patterns were named and in use in a period of time more that a century before the VMs parchment dates. The patterns used might be well known to the illustrator. But their obscurity to modern attempts at investigation is sufficient to thwart a casual investigator. Papelonny is omitted from many of the more superficial heraldic references. So what the VMs examples have been lacking is to be named and identified from the modern perspective, because there is a certain level of difficulty involved and a degree of subtle complexity in the way the illustrations are constructed.
How many identifications are needed to validate heraldry as a useful investigative premise for further research?
Further research turns up potential historical connections for certain heraldic patterns. Why would there be potential heraldic identifications with significant historical grounding tucked away in these three Zodiac illustrations?
RE: 70r1 Outer ring - Koen G - 03-04-2016
(03-04-2016, 01:03 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Many more patterns could have been drawn into these zodiac illustrations, if they were there to make things look 'better'. Instead, the VMs Zodiac presents all you ever wanted to know about heraldry and more, in just three pages - Pisces and the Aries pair.
Isn't it much more likely that some pages are embellished and others aren't? If the alternative is that a sudden lesson about heraldry is crammed into the Pisces and Aries pages? Why these pages? Why in the tubs? What's the intent? Are there any historical parallels for any of this? Heraldry on a series of tubs with naked ladies?
You know, when children start going to school, one of the exercises they do is to draw exactly those patterns. Entire pages filled with the lines of heraldry are produced by kindergartens around the world, every week. That doesn't make them medieval scriptoria.
Just to say, it's not because these patterns are also seen in heraldry, that they actually are heraldry. They could be, but to be convincing we need much more than a superficial resemblance, like JKP says:
Quote:It wouldn't surprise me if parallels to heraldry were found, since it was so pervasive, but it will be a challenge to determine whether they come directly from heraldry and add significance to the text or to the people in the illustrations