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bathing illustrations and ritual purification - MarcoP - 25-03-2016
This was posted by David in a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
(22-03-2016, 09:46 PM)david Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I had a vague theory somewhere that this page represents female purity and how accepting divine will improves your lot.
The top woman receives blessed water from heaven directly (note the cross staff she is holding* - she isn't holding it, it is coming into her hand. Compare with the ring below), which also falls straight down onto the next woman, who may represent nobility (note Crown/Ring?). But she is on her back. The water falls onto her face to symbolise purity and her whole body is in the water
This goes down to the next level of commoner who is not purified by the water but is allowed to touch it.
And finally it goes down to the beasts of the field (whores?), one of whom escapes from her bestial form by touching the water (note how she is leaving the fish) whilst her companions stay.
The hair styles of the women become progressively plainer towards the bottom.
It's just the gist of a theory... a previous one of mine was that the women represent different phases of pregnancy (note belly - the penultimate belly has been retouched to make it more prominent).
*This cross-staff, of course, may simply be a stick she is pointing at the top of row of women on the next page, showing a connection between the two sets of illustrations.
I would like to add that a detail on the following page (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) is somehow reminiscent of a baptism scene. The attached image is from an You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., 1268.
From You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
A possible additional use of the verb baptizein to relate to ritual washing is suggested by Peter Leithart (2007) who suggests that Paul's phrase "Else what shall they do who are baptized for the dead?" relates to Jewish ritual washing. In Jewish Greek the verb baptizein "baptized" has a wider reference than just "baptism" and in Jewish context primarily applies to the masculine nounbaptismos "ritual washing". The verb baptizein occurs four times in the Septuagint in the context of ritual washing, baptismos; Judith cleansing herself from menstrual impurity, Naaman washing seven times to be cleansed from leprosy, etc. Additionally, in the New Testament only, the verb baptizein can also relate to the neuter noun baptisma "baptism" which is a neologism unknown in the Septuagint and other pre-Christian Jewish texts. This broadness in the meaning of baptizein is reflected in English Bibles rendering "wash", where Jewish ritual washing is meant: for example Mark 7:4 states that the Pharisees "except they wash (Greek "baptize"), they do not eat", and "baptize" where baptisma, the new Christian rite, is intended.
RE: bathing illustrations and ritual purification - david - 25-03-2016
Yes it is, isn't it?
I personally feel that an explanation for these images must be valid for all the previous and subsequent pages - they are clearly linked in imagery and style, and should be considered as the same "topic".
RE: bathing illustrations and ritual purification - Koen G - 25-03-2016
Interpreting this as a baptism scene raises a lot of questions:
- why is the woman to be baptized wearing some kind of translucent skirt or vessel around her legs and left hand?
- what is the object in het right hand and why is she holding it?
- why is she only with her feet in the water while the suggested parallel pose is clearly all about submerging the head?
- why is she being grabbed by the eye instead of on top of the head?
- why is the woman who performs the ceremony naked, while at the same time standing on land?
There are several such scenes in the manuscript, and I actually saw them as (symbolical) fight scenes (which would explain the hand to the eye). A very clear example can be seen You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. On the same page there's also You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. This could of course be the latest episode of Ritual Purification Gone Wild
(I doubt that any of these nymphs represent actual bathing women. Or any kind of women, for that matter.)
RE: bathing illustrations and ritual purification - VViews - 25-03-2016
I agree with Khoen Gh.'s remarks. Many scenes in the quire seem to point to conflictual relations between the "nymphs".
This one on the top left of 80r looks like she's about to stab the other one with her spindle/dagger/whatever that is:
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I think that the similarity with Christian iconography may be only superficial, and perhaps even intended to make the document "pass" for such a text. Looks like baptism, looks like a cross, looks like cleansing, nothing weird going on here at all, inquisition censors, move along.
I mean, why encipher a document about baptism and cleansing?
RE: bathing illustrations and ritual purification - -JKP- - 25-03-2016
I can't decide if the thing in her hand is calipers (for measuring), forceps (for yanking out a baby), tongs (for picking up or grasping things), a compass (for making circles or measuring), or something else...
RE: bathing illustrations and ritual purification - Koen G - 25-03-2016
(25-03-2016, 03:39 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I can't decide if the thing in her hand is calipers (for measuring), forceps (for yanking out a baby), tongs (for picking up or grasping things), a compass (for making circles or measuring), or something else...
Forceps can be ruled out, based on their too recent invention You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Based on the shape alone, I'd say calipers are a possibility. If the fight is supposed to symbolize a territorial struggle (which I believe), then this would also make sense.
The images of compasses I've found are all straight legged.
Tongs are a possibility, although I'd expect more of a handle to them to provide better grip, like these (just a random example to show what I mean)
![[Image: IMG_09731.jpg]](http://www.bradfordonavonmuseum.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/IMG_09731.jpg)
So out of the options you list, I'd choose calipers.
RE: bathing illustrations and ritual purification - -JKP- - 25-03-2016
(25-03-2016, 03:52 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(25-03-2016, 03:39 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I can't decide if the thing in her hand is calipers (for measuring), forceps (for yanking out a baby), tongs (for picking up or grasping things), a compass (for making circles or measuring), or something else...
Forceps can be ruled out, based on their too recent invention You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Based on the shape alone, I'd say calipers are a possibility. If the fight is supposed to symbolize a territorial struggle (which I believe), then this would also make sense.
The images of compasses I've found are all straight legged.
Tongs are a possibility, although I'd expect more of a handle to them to provide better grip, like these (just a random example to show what I mean)
So out of the options you list, I'd choose calipers.
They had forceps by the end of the 16th century so chances are they had them earlier.
If I recall, they were more for removing dead babies than live ones but... who knows... it's not a subject most people were permitted to talk about.
RE: bathing illustrations and ritual purification - MarcoP - 25-03-2016
(25-03-2016, 03:31 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think that the similarity with Christian iconography may be only superficial, and perhaps even intended to make the document "pass" for such a text. Looks like baptism, looks like a cross, looks like cleansing, nothing weird going on here at all, inquisition censors, move along.
I mean, why encipher a document about baptism and cleansing?
I am not terribly sure that a baptism scene in which the officiant is a naked woman would have been looked at with a benevolent eye.
Anyway, I have not written that this illustration represents a baptism because I don't think it does.
In my opinion it is somehow reminiscent of illustrations of baptism, so it is possible that it represents something similar (such as some other kind of ritual purification, as proposed by David).
RE: bathing illustrations and ritual purification - VViews - 25-03-2016
(25-03-2016, 03:52 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The images of compasses I've found are all straight legged.
Not always:
[img]<p><a href=[/img]
![[Image: Woman_teaching_geometry.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Woman_teaching_geometry.jpg)
"Woman teaching geometry" Illustration from BL Burney 275 f. 293r, at the beginning of a medieval translation of Euclid's Elements (c. 1310 AD)
RE: bathing illustrations and ritual purification - MarcoP - 26-03-2016
(25-03-2016, 01:31 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Interpreting this as a baptism scene raises a lot of questions:
- why is the woman to be baptized wearing some kind of translucent skirt or vessel around her legs and left hand?
- what is the object in het right hand and why is she holding it?
- why is she only with her feet in the water while the suggested parallel pose is clearly all about submerging the head?
- why is she being grabbed by the eye instead of on top of the head?
- why is the woman who performs the ceremony naked, while at the same time standing on land?
Another illustration that parallels the most bizarre element:
some kind of translucent skirt or vessel around the legs and left hand of the person to be baptized
Claricia Psalter, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Augsburg, Germany, 1200 ca, fol.10r