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+--- Thread: 116v Multiple Entries (/thread-4894.html)
116v Multiple Entries - RobGea - 27-08-2025
It has been suggested that the marginalia on folio 116v is not 1 coherent unit but rather made up of multiple entries,
that may or may not be related to one another[1].
In this image the marginalia is broken down into 6 blocks(figures) with block 1 having three subunits.
The proposition is:
These 6 figures are the multiple entries, figs.1abc are all from the vms author and the rest are considered as separate entries.
These entries could be made 5 minutes apart or 50 years apart and by one person or multiple people.
~ Description ~
1a. EVA-'oror sheey' { but it is a little far from the doodles }
1b. Nymph
1c. Goat, cloven hooves, horns { but the tail is very large for a goat }
2. 'lab' = german for 'rennet' // doodle is possibly a goats stomach
3. 'pox leber' = German for 'goat liver' followed by 2 Unknown words
4. possible charm with crosses and rhyme structure; on the 2nd line the 1st four words endswith 'x'
5. Unknown text (illustrative reading: 'valsch vbren' )
6. Unknown text (illustrative reading: 'so nim gasmich')
~ Sequence and relation of Entries ~
1abc) Original author, scribe, creator; Doodles and text.
2) Unknown actor; draws goats stomach and word 'lab', in reference to Goat image fig.1c.
3) Unknown actor; extends the 'goat' theme from fig.1c and fig.2. with the 'pox leber' text.
4) Unknown actor; adds a 'charm' -- possibly to protect any readers of the vms.
5) Unknown actor; makes either a response to fig.1a, e.g an attempted translation of the 2 voynichese words.
Or a response to fig.4, -- possibly the phrase 'it is proven' sometimes added to more historically recent charms[2].
6) Unknown actor; makes a response to fig.5 -- if 'gasmich' means goats milk then this is a possible reference to the goat theme ie figs 1c,2 and 3.
~ Summary of themes ~
figs 1a, 1b --> Doodles
figs 1c, 2, 3 --> Goat theme
fig 4 --> Charm
fig 5 --> charm related
fig 6 --> Goat reference and possibly also references fig 5.
[1] The Voynich Temple - F116v: most likely readings based on glyph shapes - Reason 6: the nature of last-page scribbles in general
[2] Textual Magic: Charms and Written Amulets in Medieval England,Katherine Storm Hindley, 2023
RE: 116v Multiple Entries - Koen G - 27-08-2025
(27-08-2025, 04:48 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.4) Unknown actor; adds a 'charm' -- possibly to protect any readers of the vms.
(in vain)
RE: 116v Multiple Entries - Jorge_Stolfi - 27-08-2025
The fat tail would indicate a sheep rather than goat. Google says that there are many breeds with that feature, all over Europe and Asia. There is a fat-tailed goat in Pakistan, but the shape does not seem to fit.
All the best, --jorge
RE: 116v Multiple Entries - Koen G - 27-08-2025
Why are we expecting an anatomically correct tail on this marginal atrocity though?
RE: 116v Multiple Entries - Jorge_Stolfi - 28-08-2025
Actually his goat and bull are surprisingly correct. If I had to draw them from memory, I would make many gross anatomical mistakes. Like how the legs bend. (However one of the two bulls had its snout mangled by a Retracer.)
I would guess that those drawings on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. were made by the Scribe as tests, e.g. to see how much detail he could draw with that pen on that scale.
--all the best, jorge
RE: 116v Multiple Entries - Aga Tentakulus - 28-08-2025
He wasn't the only one who drew the sheep with a thick tail.
Actually extinct, attempt at rebreeding in 2018.
Veltliner sheep.
RE: 116v Multiple Entries - Aga Tentakulus - 28-08-2025
That made me laugh.
Here we still have the holy billy goat.
RE: 116v Multiple Entries - Koen G - 28-08-2025
(28-08-2025, 12:08 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Actually his goat and bull are surprisingly correct. If I had to draw them from memory, I would make many gross anatomical mistakes. Like how the legs bend.
The hind legs of the bulls famously bend the wrong way though, a mistake so unusual that we haven't found it elsewhere yet.
In green Aries (the "good" one), the animal's right horn connects to its left temple and the left horn connects to its neck. The animal appears to be interpreted by the VM artist as browsing, which is goat behavior. The tail is somewhat in between sheep and goat. The horns are more goat than sheep. However, the goat's typical beard is missing.
I understand the coherence of everything on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. depends on whether the animal depicted is more likely a goat or a sheep. But it isn't even clear whether the much bigger Aries is a goat or a sheep...
RE: 116v Multiple Entries - Bernd - 28-08-2025
I have been wondering if all marginalia could have been created by the VM artist, but not the scribe(s). Is there anything that fundamentally rules out this hypothesis?
Koen noted You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that the human marginalia figure on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. strongly resembles the drawing style of f57v. Both pages are also on the same bifolio which is evidence of their common origin. It would also mean that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. marginalia were produced at the same time as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and long before 116v.
The nymph on 116v is probably the most advanced in the entire manuscript, yet also shows key elements of VM imagery. So does the sheepgoat. I'd find it unlikely that the marginalia drawings were created by an unrelated later owner. Still there is a noticeable gap in artistic development between the best VM nymphs and this one on the last page. Either we are missing some parts of the VM with better imagery, or the artist later tried to 'improve' it (showercaps in zodiac?). Overall I currently see little evidence for several VM artists, it looks more like a continuous development.
As for the text, I'm not qualified to judge if it comes from the same person. But it does bear some resemblance to the color annotations.
My main points are:
.) all marginalia are odd and devoid of straightforward meaning
.) not just in words but also (due to) ambiguous letter shapes which are clumsy or appear to have been changed mid-way
.) there are VM glyphs intermixed with ordinary letters
As with the imagery, while we cannot rule it out, I'd find it unlikely that several people produce extremely similar text, which at least appears to have some connection with the marginalia images.
If we follow the hypothesis that the VM artist wrote all the marginalia, perhaps in chunks and at different times as suggested, this paints the picture of someone who apparently has trouble writing for whatever reason. Be it lack of literacy, unfamiliarity with the script or language or some physical/mental issue. It would also explain why he hired one or several scribes to produce the text.
If we reject this hypothesis, we must either accept that someone drew surprisingly matching imagery while the VM was still loose bifolios or that marginalia imagery and text are unrelated.
If we reject a different authorship for overall VM text and imagery, we must also explain why marginalia are so clumsy in comparison to Voynichese. I think most people rule out that marginalia and the bulk Voynichese text were produced by the same person.
I see problems with all those approaches, maybe you have a better explanation. I do think it points to a quite complex and non-linear history of the VM.
RE: 116v Multiple Entries - Koen G - 28-08-2025
I agree on most points, Bernd. However, perhaps I would not think too much about the clumsiness of the marginalia. Why were these written, and how quickly, under which circumstances? For private use only? I write differently when I know someone else needs to be able to decipher my handwriting.
The evolution of nymph styles and the question of multiple artists is one that fascinates me also, though we must be careful not to go too far off topic here. As for the 116v nymph, I wonder what exactly it is that makes her more advanced than the others?