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Comparisons with Mexican Illustrations - Printable Version

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Comparisons with Mexican Illustrations - SiestaGuru - 25-05-2025

Hi, I found some noteworthy similarities in some older Mexican works with the VM. I hadn't seen these discussed before and so and wanted to share. All the mentioned codices are written after the supposed VM origin time, so the VM can not have used them as inspiration.
 

These two images are from Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca, supposedly written from somewhere between 1547 and 1560 on European paper.

   

The caverns in Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca are the Chicomoztoc, a mythical origin place for the Nahuatl people. The shape of the inner structure and the way the border of it is drawn in my opinion strongly resemble the structure on the VM rosetta. The fact that it is in a circle and that the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca drawing also contains this structure on top with intertwined half circle doodles, just like we often see in the VM further, as well as the plants on the outside add to my suspicion these could be related somehow.
Note that it's unlikely that this describes the exact same object, since Chicomoztoc is very specifically 7 caves, and the VM illustration has more 'cavities'

Another similarity I found in Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca is the following, again with a VM image on the rosetta:

   

What struck me here is that both objects have 'grass'  growing out of them, and that the VM just like the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca example may have two 'pipes' coming out of it on the right hand side

You can find a scan of Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It's quite the interesting book to go through, it's visually just as interesting as the VM in my opinion, but since we already know the language it probably doesn't get as much attention


Another interesting thing to look at are the books of Chilam Balam (17th and 18th century). Scans can be found here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
This book contains some astronomical diagrams which in my opinion resemble the VM in a few ways:

                   

For comparison, here's the VM images of sun, moon and these 'little circle guys' you see both in the VM and in the books of Chilam Balam

   

Chilam Balam also contains a zodiac. I don't think it's an amazing correlation with the VM zodiac, but it's the worst either. It's at least a sign that the same subject material was considered here

   

Another book is 16th century codex tudela, scans here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

This book contains some hebral drawings, some really cool but clearly unrelated aztec drawings and what particularly struck me,though I may be overimagining things some very similar folio numbers. I also noted some similarities in the script with the VM, particularly that a couple of words appear to start with something that looks very similar to the common VM word prefix: "4o". A couple of the characters also vaguely resemble the gallows characters we see in the VM.

   

Finally, in codice dehesa from the 16th/17th century (scans: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), which apparently also discusses Chicomoztoc, I noticed a few characters that resemble a sloppy version of the overexaggerated gallow characters you sometimes see in the VM at the start of a page:

   

Brief analysis

I won't say that any of these are slam dunk evidence for a new world origin hypothesis. There's quite a few counterarguments against it like the carbon dating, medieval european style, material properties, etc. You also clearly do not see what you see in most Mexican codices: displays of humans/gods in elaborate and distinctive mesoamerican style clothes and accessories and in general a Mexican style is missing in the VM.

But I do think there's a few signs in here that there may have been some shared culture between the VM and some of these Mexican codices which I cannot easily explain through the columbian exchange. Particularly, it seems unlikely that Europeans came up with Chicomoztoc or inspired Mexicans to draw it in this particular way, while the style and contents of drawings on the Rosetta appear unique within Europe and do not seem to have had much impact.

Beyond the visual similarities between some of the images and some of the script and the general sense of unfamiliarity, I think it's also particularly noteworthy that the contents of some of these Mexican works has a similar sort of feeling to the VM of being partially scientific and partially religious/occult without containing the more familiar western religious/occult symbols. Belief in a sun god was widespread in mesoamerica and it would not surprise me if the VM astronomical diagrams in the VM have some religious sun god connotations

RE: Comparisons with Mexican Illustrations - Rafal - 25-05-2025

Thanks for sharing these Mexican codices.

They are quite interesting. The art style is Mexican/Aztec (with some Spanish influences) and the language is local but the content and concepts are European, like Zodiac or celestial spheres.

So I wouldn't be very surprised about some similarities between VM and these codices. After all, they all stem from the same tradition.

RE: Comparisons with Mexican Illustrations - SiestaGuru - 25-05-2025

Yes, many concepts are European in these codices and it is no surprise to see them after the Columbian exchange. But not everything here is European. Many Mexican codices like Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca discuss Mexican history and religion.

Where it gets interesting is not where Mexican codices show European elements that are in the VM, it's where they show things that appear similar to the VM while that thing is not common in European works. I believe the first example in Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca is a case of that, and possibly some of the script similarities fit too. If a cultural element is not commonly used in Europe, why would it reappear in the new world? It would not seem natural that the Spanish would have introduced it if it was unfamilliar to them too, they probably did not go around to show the Voynich manuscript to locals.

So is it a stylistic coincidence? Were the ideas brought there by the same niche group that was involved in the VM? If so, who? Was this stylistic concept common in Europe after all? Could the cultural impact have gone in the opposite direction? Was a Mexican person was somehow involved in the construction of the VM?

These caves and this particular visual representation seem to have appeared more often. This Mexican map (Mapa de Cuauhtinchan N° 2) has the same cave structure as in Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca (And possibly the same as in the VM) on the top left, while the idea of such a large foldable non-geographic map reminds you of the Voynich Rosetta. Perhaps the Rosetta is also more of a historic or spritual journey rather than a map of a place?

[Image: Mapa%20completo.jpeg]

RE: Comparisons with Mexican Illustrations - SiestaGuru - 25-05-2025

If anyone is interested, I've gathered quite a lengthy list of works from the new world, most from Mexico. Most of these are very unlikely to be relevant to research on the Voynich manuscript, but quite a few of these will be interesting to curious people for the different world they show

Some of the manuscripts in this list do have some script similarities with the VM, particularly he "tl" sign looks quite a lt like a galows character. However it seems fairly clear to me that the VM is not just plainly written Nahuatl, it's still way too different for that.

You'll have to forgive me that the list below is unorganized and probably contains some dead links

Code:
Codex Borbonicus http://www.famsi.org/research/loubat/Borbonicus/thumbs0.html Codex Borgia https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Borg.mess.1 Ixil, Libro de Chilam Balam de  https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=33 Códice Dehesa.  https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=15 http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080026177/1080026177_14.pdf Mapa de Cuauhtinchan N° 2 http://mesoamerica.info/assets/images/mc2-introduccion.jpg Codex Laud https://archive.org/details/Ancient-Books-All-Rare-Collections_Of_CODICES/Codex%20Laud/mode/2up?view=theater Códice Chavero de Huexotzingo https://www.loc.gov/item/2021667609/ Martín de la Cruz (Badiano)  - Herbal https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=12 Many plant/herbal drawings, interesting to compare to VM Códice Chimalpahin y obras históricas de Fernando de Alva Ixtlilxóchitl https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=61   Huexotzingo, Códice Tovar de https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=31 Pintura del gobernador, alcaldes y regidores de México https://archive.org/details/gri_33125010926489/page/n17/mode/2up Codex Tudela  http://ceres.mcu.es/pages/Viewer?accion=4&AMuseo=MAM&Ninv=70400 Codex Mexicanus https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b55005834g/f3.item.r=Codex%20Mexicanus Codex Mendoza / Mendocino https://codicemendoza.inah.gob.mx/index.php?lang=spanish Codex Huetamo http://bdmx.mx/documento/galeria/codice-huetamo Codex Duran http://www.palatinopress.com/the-art-of-the-duran-codex.html   Codex Ixtlilxochitl http://www.famsi.org/research/graz/ixtlilxochitl/index.html    Códice del Marquesado del Valle http://bdmx.mx/documento/galeria/codices-marquesado-valle/co_0305210fmr/fo_01 Matricula de Huexotzingo/Mexicain 387 https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b7200005f/f16.item.r=huexotzingo.langEN Codex Sierra-Texupan http://bdmx.mx/documento/galeria/codice-sierra-texupan/co_01/2/fo_sierra Codex Vaticanus 3738 A/Rios https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Vat.lat.3738 Chilam balam of chumayel https://archive.org/details/bookofchilambala05hofluoft/bookofchilambala05hofluoft/page/68/mode/2up Aubin Codex https://catalog.princeton.edu/catalog/3924025#view Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b84559448/f6.item Codex Osuna https://collections.lib.utah.edu/details?id=313659 Codex Bodley https://iiif.biblissima.fr/collections/manifest/426e65a7ad6465b82307c4c30333687fae0b30c2 Codex Colombino https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=11 Selden Roll https://digital.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/objects/75a8f3db-69d3-4bef-bfc5-c61a55562114/ Codex Telleriano-Remensis https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8458267s.r=Telleriano?rk=21459;2 Codex Boturini /Tira de la Peregrinación https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=6 Codex Xolotl https://archive.org/details/codex-xolotl/001-010_02.jpg Matrícula de Tributos https://www.loc.gov/item/2021667610/ Mapa de Santa Cruz, https://www.library.fordham.edu/digital/item/collection/artHistoryDB/id/5438 Azoyu https://www.library.fordham.edu/digital/item/collection/artHistoryDB/id/4358 Codex Cospi http://www.famsi.org/research/loubat/Cospi/thumbs0.html Codex Fejérváry-Mayer http://www.famsi.org/research/loubat/Fejervary/thumbs0.html   Codex Vaticanus 3773 B https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Vat.lat.3773 Codex en Cruz, https://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/codice.php?id=015-017 https://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/codice.php?id=088_5 https://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/codice.php?id=090_2 Codex Mexicano https://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/codice.php?id=083 Codex Magliabechiano CL. XIII.3 http://www.famsi.org/research/graz/magliabechiano/index.html Chavero, Códice https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=7 Códice de Cholula https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=8 Mapa de Coatlinchan https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/img/reel/9_MAPA_DE_COATLINCHAN/IMG1.jpg Oztoticpac Lands Map of Texcoco https://www.wdl.org/en/item/106/ Historia de Mexico [with] the Tovar calendar, https://www.loc.gov/resource/rbc0001.2008kislak81897/?sp=3 anales de tula http://mediateca.inah.gob.mx/islandora_74/islandora/object/codice%3A664 Barrios de Chalco https://tlachia.iib.unam.mx/archivos/barrios-de-chalco/imagenes/030_093v.jpg https://tlachia.iib.unam.mx/archivos/barrios-de-chalco/imagenes/030_093r.jpg Codex of Mexican History from 1221 to 1594 https://www.loc.gov/item/2021668121/ Boban calendar wheel https://archive.org/details/bobancalendarwhe00boba/page/n1/mode/2up Codex Azcatitlan https://www.loc.gov/item/2021668122/ códice Amecameca https://www.noticonquista.unam.mx/imagen-popup/1806 Códice Ayotzingo https://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/laminas.php?id=084&ord_lamina=084_06&act=con Codex Becker 1 https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5038501/f22.item Codex Becker I-II: http://www.famsi.org/research/graz/becker/thumbs_0.html Codex Baranda http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080026177/1080026177_12.pdf http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080026177/1080026177_13.pdf Códice Colombiano http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080026177/1080026177.html Códice Porfirio Díaz http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080026177/1080026177.html Relieves de Chiapas Existentes en el Museo Nacional de México. http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080026177/1080026177.html Lienzo de Tlaxcalla publicado por Alfredo Chavedo México 1892. http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080026177/1080026177.html Cuauhtinchan, Mapa de, No.3 https://codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=13 Amate, Plano en papel https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=1 Lienzo de Zacatepec https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=59 Azoyú, Códice de, No. 1 https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=3 Azoyú, Códice de, No. 2 (1ra parte) https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=4 Tonalamatl de Aubin https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=2 Lienzo de Coixtlahuaca https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=10 Cuauhtinchan, Mapa de, No.3 https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=13 Cuauhtinchan, Mapa de, No.4 https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=14 Gómez Orozco, Catecismo https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=24https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=24 CÓDICE HUAMANTLA https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=25 CÓDICE DE TRIBUTOS DE MIZQUIAHUALA https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=35 Códice de Mixteco Post-Cortesiano No. 36 https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=37 Genealogía de Zolín https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=60 Nahuatzen, Lienzo de https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=39 Moctezuma, Códice https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=38 Libro de Oraciones https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=40 Porfirio Díaz, Códice https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=42 Còdice de los Señores de San Lorenzo Axotlàn y San Luis Huexotla https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=43 Sigüenza, Mapa de https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=44 Tepecticpac, Tlaxcala, genealogía de una familia de https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=46 Tlamapa, Códice de Tributos de Santa Cruz https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=48 some different number styles Lienzo de Tlapa https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=49 Genealogía de los Señores de Etla https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=16 Códice García Granados https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=23 Iztapalapa, Códice de https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=34 Tlaxcala, Lienzo de No.2 https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=51 CÓDICE HUICHAPAN https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=32 https://mediateca.inah.gob.mx/repositorio/islandora/object/codice%3A1136#page/1/mode/2up Plano Parcial de la Ciudad de México https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=41 Techialoyan, Códice de San Antonio https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=45 Tlaxcala, Lienzo de No.1 https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=50 Tlaxcala, Lienzo de No.3 https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=52 Tlaxcala, Lienzo de No.4 https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=53 Veytia, Calendario Mexicano (Variante de) No. 7 https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=56 nice calendars, may be useful Veytia, Calendario Mexicano de, No. 5 https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=57 Codex Cozcatzin https://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/codice.php?id=089_5 https://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/codice.php?id=045_b https://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/codice.php?id=041-045   Codex Egerton 2895 https://archive.org/details/Ancient-Books-All-Rare-Collections_Of_CODICES/Codex%20Egerton%202895/page/n9/mode/2up?view=theater   Codice de Jilotepec https://ceape.edomex.gob.mx/sites/ceape.edomex.gob.mx/files/C%C3%B3dice%20de%20Jilotepec.pdf Codex Quetzalecatzin https://www.loc.gov/resource/g4701g.ct009133?r=-0.764,-0.149,2.527,1.606,0 Codice de Quiotepec y Cuicatlan https://mediateca.inah.gob.mx/repositorio/islandora/object/codice%3A637 Codex Rickards (partial blueprint of the Lienzo de Tlapiltepec) https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/E_Am2006-Drg-284 Codex Sánchez Solís- Codex Egerton 2895: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/E_Am1962-03-8 Codex of Temascaltepec https://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/codice.php?id=111 Codex Tetlapalco/Codex Saville https://www.si.edu/object/NMAI_147424 Codex Totomixtlahuaca https://www.wdl.org/en/item/2701/view/1/1/ Codex Tulane https://digitallibrary.tulane.edu/islandora/object/tulane%3A19289 Codex Vergara https://www.wdl.org/en/item/15278/#additional_subjects=Aztecs&page=2 Codex Vindobonensis Mexicanus 1 (Vienna http://www.famsi.org/research/graz/vindobonensis/thumbs_0.html Codex Yanhuitlan http://bdmx.mx/documento/galeria/codice-yanhuitlan Codex Xolotl http://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/codice.php?id=001-010 Codex Zouche-Nuttall http://www.famsi.org/research/graz/zouche_nuttall/thumbs_0.html Confirmación de las elecciones de Calpan https://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/codice.php?id=073 Doctrina Cristiana- Egerton 2898 https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/E_Am1962-03-7  Economic Census of Tepoztlan: https://digitallibrary.tulane.edu/islandora/object/tulane%3A19307/datastream/PDF/view Fonds Mexicains 20 (Aubin 20) https://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/laminas.php?id=020&ord_lamina=020_1&act=con Genealogía circular de los descendientes de Nezahualcóyotl http://bdmx.mx/documento/genealogia-circular Genealogía de Huitznahuac calpulli: https://www.tetlacuilolli.org.mx/codice.php?id=1198292658 Genealogía de la familia Cano https://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/codice.php?id=388 Genealogia de los Principes Mexicanos/Pedro Dionisio https://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/zoom.php?ri=codices/072/laminas/072_1.jpg Gomez de Cervantes' Memorial and the Anonymous Pictorial Manuscript https://www.bmimages.com/preview.asp?image=01613657356 Historia Mexicana 1194 - 1221 http://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/codice.php?id=089_1 Huyxoapan, San Pablo- Azcapotzalco Maguey Manuscript https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/E_Am2006-Drg-2207 Huexotzinco Codex https://www.loc.gov/item/mss47662-2657/ Ordinances from Señor Cuauhtemoc https://digitallibrary.tulane.edu/islandora/object/tulane%3A19309 Papers of Itzcuintepec- Egerton 2896 https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/E_Am2006-Drg-2896 Papers of Itzcuintepec- Egerton 2897 https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/E_Am2006-Drg-2897 Códice Itzcuintepec I-V https://www.tetlacuilolli.org.mx/codice.php?id=1222278482 https://www.tetlacuilolli.org.mx/codice.php?id=1198288431 https://www.tetlacuilolli.org.mx/codice.php?id=1198288557 https://www.tetlacuilolli.org.mx/codice.php?id=1198289255 https://www.tetlacuilolli.org.mx/codice.php?id=1198289408 https://www.tetlacuilolli.org.mx/codice.php?id=1198289578 Pintura de los indios de Nueva España 1543/Pintura del pleito entre Tepexpan y Temaxcalapa http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/show/21645 Pintura de los indios de Nueva España 1545/Proceso contra Andrés Tapia por malos tratamientos a los indios de Tepeucila http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/show/21646 Techialoyan de Cuajimalpa https://artsandculture.google.com/story/techialoyan-de-cuajimalpa-codice/FwJipJMc2P3pJg Proclama por la liberación de la Nueva España de la sujeción a la Corona de Castilla y sublevación de sus naturales http://bdmx.mx/documento/galeria/liberacion-nueva-espana/co_folio45a/fo_proclama Techialoyan de Huyxoapan https://www.tetlacuilolli.org.mx/codice.php?id=1198290360 Techialoyan de Santiago Atenco Chalco: http://www.tetlacuilolli.org.mx/codice.php?id=1198290173 Tira de Tepechpan https://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/codice.php?id=013-014 Tira de tributos de Mizquiahuala/Tribute list for Mizquiahuala https://digitallibrary.tulane.edu/islandora/object/tulane%3A19310 Tributes of Tzintzuntzan and Tlalpujava https://lib-dbserver.princeton.edu/mssimages/Garrett%20Mesoamerican/garrettmeso7.jpg Tributos de Tlaxincan Tlaylotlacan y otros barrios: https://tlachia.iib.unam.mx/archivos/tlaxincan-tlaylotlacan-tecpanpa/imagenes/O28.jpg Valadés calendar wheel: https://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/zoom.php?ri=codices/089_7/laminas/089_7_1.jpg Veytia calendar wheels https://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/zoom.php?ri=codices/089_2/laminas/089_2_1.jpg https://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/zoom.php?ri=codices/092/laminas/092_1.jpg Veytia calendar wheel No. 5 de Veytia: https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/images-6/695_02_2.jpg A bunch more maps at https://www.smokingmirror.org/Central_Mexican_resources/ant356_links.html http://bdmx.mx/documento/galeria/mapas-indigenas-novohispanos-agn/fo_01 http://bdmx.mx/documento/galeria/mapa-relacion-geografica-itztapalapa http://bdmx.mx/documento/galeria/mapa-relacion-geografica-mixquiahuala Text only: https://archive.org/details/dogmasofchurchde00unkn/page/n83/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/colloquioynqueni00sant/page/n7/mode/2up https://www.codices.inah.gob.mx/pc/contenido.php?id=47 http://bdmx.mx/documento/galeria/romances-senores-nueva-espana https://enl.uoregon.edu/bc31/elements/bc31a/000 https://enl.uoregon.edu/bc04/elements/bc04a/000 http://biblioteca.usac.edu.gt/folleto/USAC/digi/USAC_897,4_R116rab.pdf