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+--- Thread: Zodiac series of University of Pennsylvania LJS 449 (/thread-4447.html)
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Zodiac series of University of Pennsylvania LJS 449 - Koen G - 02-01-2025
I would like to draw attention to the Zodiac series of University of Pennsylvania LJS 463 449, which Nablator mentioned here:
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This may have been discussed before, but I didn't find anything on the forum.
This series of Zodiac images f.12r-22v accompanies a "treatise in German on favorable and unfavorable days for various activities". This kind of text may be interesting with regards to the "bathing nymphs" in the Zodiac section.
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The Zodiac signs are stylistically different from those of the VM, but there are many peculiar similarities in some of them. Most notably bull, lobster and lion.
- The bull is a silly red creature with a three-pronged tail standing on green terrain.
- The lobster is wonderfully faulty with only two pairs of "walking legs", one of which is on the tail (linking it to the Soissons - Alsace vein). The overall body type is very similar.
- The lion is of a different type altogether. But look at that tail!
For Aries/Capricorn, the VM animals remain ambiguous. But you can see some connection, especially with Capricorn. Climbing a bit towards the left, one tree...
- Gemini is quite different. Nude vs. dressed and a much more spectacular pose. Position of man/woman is the same, but that's about it.
- Virgo has a different dress, but that is to be expected: the VM wide open, dagged sleeves are typical for the first quarter of the 15th century. Both ladies are on terrain and there are flowers involved. However, the Pennsylvania Virgo appears to be making a wreath.
- I thought the scales were quite different at first, but now I think they are related. Notice the rim on the cups and the way the three black lines are connected to it.
The remaining signs are quite different.
All in all, I think these Zodiac symbols are closely related to those in the VM, but stylistically different. It's probably a matter of being on the same family tree.
RE: Zodiac series of University of Pennsylvania LJS 463 - R. Sale - 02-01-2025
Some illustrations have more similarities than others. Some manuscripts are better than others. The tails on Taurus and Leo are good. However, Gemini either being clothed or nude is not a "copying" variation. A few stars in VMs Libra would have helped.
Looking for PA provenance, I take 1446 as the date of production, but don't see a location. Does the text imply the source is German?
These recent examples of Taurus are still falling into pre-1350 or post-1440 with too few examples that might be more immediately pre-VMs.
RE: Zodiac series of University of Pennsylvania LJS 463 - Koen G - 02-01-2025
I don't think date matters all that much for zodiac sequences as a whole. They were copied to such an extent that choices or mistakes made by someone in the 13th century still echo in the late 15th century. When we dated the Gemini, Virgo and archer, we used dress, not the overall composition.
What's remarkable about this series is that it matches pretty broadly. I mean: quite a number of figures are similar enough. I'm not sure how other "broad" similar series compare, it would be interesting to put them side by side.
Edit to clarify: of course date does matter. But what I mean is that the genre is so traditionalist and dependent on exemplars that later manuscripts may still reveal something of interest.
RE: Zodiac series of University of Pennsylvania LJS 463 - nablator - 03-01-2025
(02-01-2025, 07:36 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I would like to draw attention to the Zodiac series of University of Pennsylvania LJS 463, which Nablator mentioned here:
This is actually You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
RE: Zodiac series of University of Pennsylvania LJS 449 - Koen G - 03-01-2025
Oops, corrected. The LJS 463 zodiac isn't nearly as good.
RE: Zodiac series of University of Pennsylvania LJS 449 - R. Sale - 03-01-2025
Well, there you go then. You can't date the clothing of naked people.
I agree there are similarities, but it's the degree of individuality that bothers me. You don't *copy* a raised tail by sticking it between the legs. You don't copy a clothed person by drawing a nude, or vice versa. So, it's an interesting and complicated conundrum. We progress by expanding the data base.
RE: Zodiac series of University of Pennsylvania LJS 449 - Aga Tentakulus - 03-01-2025
Nice book, but ...
How often do you think it happens that someone takes off their shoes by the fire in February?
RE: Zodiac series of University of Pennsylvania LJS 449 - R. Sale - 03-01-2025
I've seen it before in another source. The real question is not how often it *happens*, but how often it was pictured as the monthly activity for February.
RE: Zodiac series of University of Pennsylvania LJS 449 - Dana Scott - 04-01-2025
(03-01-2025, 07:01 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've seen it before in another source. The real question is not how often it *happens*, but how often it was pictured as the monthly activity for February.
I certainly would remove boots by the fire to help thaw out frozen feet and toes and dry out the boots and socks. Been there. Done that.
RE: Zodiac series of University of Pennsylvania LJS 449 - Aga Tentakulus - 04-01-2025
Actually, that's not what I was getting at. Fundamentally, both are right.
In this picture he still has his shoes on. (Lauber)
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But still, the pictures are basically the same although you could draw them differently. Whereas the fish on the other continent is always drawn the same. (various exceptions).
In this example, the Hornug/Hornig (February) is drawn in a different way.
The question is when was something copied and when can I rely on pictures at all.
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