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+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - Anton - 23-05-2021
(23-05-2021, 06:23 PM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Just a general comment about the choice between the meaning of "pox (leber) ..." as (1) a curse, or (2) a simple record of an exchange: I would rather expect a curse in such a significant place as the only few lines of text on the final page of a large manuscript, parts of which (the few lines) are enciphered in two different cipher systems. It would seem to be a strange place to record the amount of money that goat liver cost.
Not necessarily amount of money, but in any case the outer folios of an MS are the natural place for idle marginalia, can just be a passing record, and nothing more.
***
There's also some information about the suffix "-fer" in the Swiss Idiotikon: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (left column, some 8-9 lines from the bottom up).
RE: 116v - Searcher - 23-05-2021
Can it be something like "goat's liver or of a [red] horse"?
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 24-05-2021
I was just looking for "obren" (abren) from brennen in the Idiotikon.
Then I came across an "umen".
The sentence is in German:
Angebrannte Hefter und Bücher sind umher geflogen.
Burnt staplers and books flew around.
Here the word "umen" has a completely different meaning.
You see, without a sentence it is difficult to determine a word. There are often several possibilities.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 24-05-2021
(23-05-2021, 05:35 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If we admit that "p" in "pbren" may stand for an abbreviation, it makes sense to consider that "P" in "pmen" and "pfer" may be an abbreviation too. Otherwise the "pf" bigram is difficult to fit into the context indeed. The foremost option that ever came to my mind was "pferd" (horse), but unfortunately there's not the slightest trace of "d" after "r".
In some dialects, the "d" in "pferd" is not pronounced (the sound is soft or is kind of swallowed), so it's possible some people may have written it without the "d". But it would be a casual way to do it and I have not seen any examples of "pfer[d]" that I can remember.
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 24-05-2021
There is a word in Alemannic which is spelled "schnurpfer".
spells.
Since I see the Bavarian dialect in the VM, it is possible that the regional "sch" is omitted from "schnurpfer".
For this, it would make sense for me to search where Rene also found "poxleber".
This would make the most sense to me at the moment. Ergo, see Tyrol.
Everything points to it anyway.
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RE: 116v - MarcoP - 26-06-2021
These are a few details from what appears to be a long charm (f14v-17v) in the Icelandic manuscript You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1640). The title appears to be in Icelandic and includes the bigram "pf". The following pages are mostly bad Latin, with a few Greek and Hebrew words.
EDIT it's 'poras' (maybe part of a longer word) not 'portas'
RE: 116v - Koen G - 26-06-2021
Interesting, Marco, at the very least this seems to confirm that we are likely looking at a charm for the part with the crosses.
This makes me think about the possible role of Greek on this page.
The "maria portavid ihesum christum" line reminded me of the Greek-speaking world where she is called the Theotokos, the God-carrier. Obviously Mary as the mother of God is an essential part of Christian doctrine in general, but in Greek, '"to carry" is a part of her primary title, while in Latin other titles are preferred, like Mater Dei.
(Apparently the Latin equivalent of Theotokos is Deipara, Dei genitrix - two terms I was not familiar with).
See the wiki here for early titles of Mary: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The mysterious "anchiton" is usually associated with Greek, through a derivation of chiton or something like archon . But I noticed the word before "maria" in the VM could be Greek as well. Apparently this was addressed before in this thread, though it didn't gain much traction.
(27-04-2016, 05:43 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I remember one interpretation, but not sure by whom, where 'ahia' was considered to mean (h)agia i.e. Greek for holy or saint. What I don't remember is whether use of ahia in this sense was attested elsewhere. That is of course important.
Greek for "Holy Mary" is, according to the wiki list linked above Ἁγία Μαρία. This is so close to the VM's "ahia maria" that I'm starting to wonder why it is not yet generally accepted as the most likely reading.
RE: 116v - Searcher - 26-06-2021
(26-06-2021, 01:11 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Greek for "Holy Mary" is, according to the wiki list linked above Ἁγία Μαρία. This is so close to the VM's "ahia maria" that I'm starting to wonder why it is not yet generally accepted as the most likely reading.I am also really surprised with this. In the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I wrote:
Quote:What if the second line is a mix only of two languages: Latin and Greek (in Latin transliteration)?And from my You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
ανχητον όλα dabas μίλτος τε τάρ tere portas
I just think that όλα is not a correct form of the word, possibly, sribe's mistake. So, perhaps, it must be:
ανχητον όλο dabas μίλτος τε τάρ tere portas
(you added all anchiton, ochres, and so, rub gates [...])
Quote:I looked through the thread quickly and payd attention to ReneZ's post where he wrote that someone supposed that the word "ahia" may mean "hagia". In the light of my later examination, it is one more evidence that the scribe uses Latin transliteration of some Greek words. "αγια Μαρια" is really common Greek word combination, an analogue of "Saint Mary". The scribe just uses not usual transliteration "agios", "agia", but changes "g" with "h".And no one seems to be interest in the latter. I understand that this thread have became too long and the information gets lost in this big data. So, probably, I was to summarize these two posts, to accent on that that the two lines of the marginalia can contain 6 Greek words among the rest text (Latin and magic words). In this case, these two lines becomes absolutely readable and comprehensible, besides, of course, the magic words. I think the mix of the two languages and transliteration of the Greek words into Latin are intentional, to obscure the meaning of the text, to make it look more magic for a pacient.
The result:
ανχητον όλο dabas μίλτος τε τάρ tere portas
six (fix) + marix + morix + vix αγια Μα+ρια
I would add that usually anchiton is associated with purity, purification, and miltos - with blood. So, I suppose it quite can relate to the purification of the blood.
I think there is nothing unusual if a scribe makes mistakes in transliteration from another language, there are mass of such errors in manuscripts and books.
RE: 116v - MarcoP - 26-06-2021
(26-06-2021, 01:11 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But I noticed the word before "maria" in the VM could be Greek as well. Apparently this was addressed before in this thread, though it didn't gain much traction.
(27-04-2016, 05:43 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I remember one interpretation, but not sure by whom, where 'ahia' was considered to mean (h)agia i.e. Greek for holy or saint. What I don't remember is whether use of ahia in this sense was attested elsewhere. That is of course important.
Greek for "Holy Mary" is, according to the wiki list linked above Ἁγία Μαρία. This is so close to the VM's "ahia maria" that I'm starting to wonder why it is not yet generally accepted as the most likely reading.
Hi Koen,
I think that 'agios' (ἅγιος) could appear at the end of 17r in the Iceland ms:
emanuel, tetragrammaton, aries, otheos [o theos?], agios, istirios[???], ignos[???], athan[a]tos, amen
I guess there are two problems with 'ahia maria' in VMS 116v:
- as Rene said, it is not clear that the spelling 'ahia' is documented
- the word in 116v is closer to 'abia' (no descender and possibly closed lower loop)
BTW, I fixed an error in the previous image: sadly, there is no occurrence of 'portas'.
RE: 116v - Anton - 26-06-2021
Yes, I'd say it's definitely "abia", at least in the "final" rendering of f116v.