+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - -JKP- - 18-05-2021
I'm almost certain the poxleber typeset text was cited, years ago. We should probably find it and add a link to this thread, because it was more than a mere mention.
RE: 116v - Koen G - 18-05-2021
The problem with this thread is that everything will get lost in its folds though. It would be better to gather all attestations of marginalia words in a dedicated thread.
RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 19-05-2021
There has been a more than extensive discussion of pox leber and where you find it and what it means on the old mailing list, I am not going to ontinue it. Maybe someone has a link
RE: 116v - MarcoP - 19-05-2021
A You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. points out that the 1503 poxleber was mentioned by Lars Dietz in a 2015 comment on Rich's blog.
RE: 116v - ReneZ - 19-05-2021
The discussion in the old mailing list was mainly concentrating on the use of 'poxleber' as an invective or curse. This goes back to the 15th century Nürnberger Fastnachtspiele written among others by Hans Folz (1435/1440 - 1513), as Anton has already pointed out here.
In the Züricher Arzneibuch (Zürich Zentralbibliothek MS C 58) which is from the 12th century, there is a recipe that includes: "so nim pocches lebere". This is of course a different spelling, but it is the same thing, and shows that recipes including goat liver existed. (In fact they exist since antiquity, typically against night blindness).
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 19-05-2021
pox liver
A beautiful example in application and dialect.
I looked again at the comments at Bax.
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At that time I still wrote as Peter.
This would also be consistent with the spelling on page 66.
For me it is another good clue to the origin and further confirms the theory.
Fundamentally, nothing has changed and I continue to hold this opinion.
RE: 116v - Anton - 22-05-2021
There's nothing unusual or uncommon in "pox leber", and I think it's one of the least disputed readings in f116v. Literally meaning "goat liver", it can be goat liver indeed, or an invective of the template "pox something" which is the product of the German carnival culture attested even by Rabelais. The exact choice between the two depends of course on the context.
What I however find interesting in Rakanua's example is the template "something umb a quantity of something", in particular "pox leber umb ein kreuzer", if I undestand correctly this means that goat liver is exchanged for one kreuzer?!
Would then the first line of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. "pox leber um en something illegible" be as simple as that?
Modern German "um" is still "for" as in "goat liver for a kreuzer".
Here's the article about "umbe" You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I guess "um" is a variant of "umb", can somebody please have a look and explain which grammar form would that be?
Which dialect would have "en" for "ein"? Something Luxembourgish? Or maybe Low German?
RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 22-05-2021
if I undestand correctly this means that goat liver is exchanged for one kreuzer?!
that is orrect, it is sold or bought for a k.
Modern German "um" is still "for" as in "goat liver for a kreuzer".
That is corret as well
can somebody please have a look and explain which grammar form would that be?
um is a preposition going with an accusative, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Which dialect would have "en" for "ein"? Something Luxembourgish? Or maybe Low German?
I think something North German in the widest sense, South G. would be 'a'
Would then the first line of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. "pox leber um en something illegible" be as simple as that?
Your fundamental mistake is that you misread p as v/u. With the exeption of the p in pox the p in this text has a very small descender, but it is the same letter in its upper part. If the scribe wrote it that way or if part of the descenders were wiped out I am not giving a judgement here, but I think he wrote it that way The text after poxleber is pmm which I interpret as primum, the next group of letters I read as putrefct and interpret as putrefacit. There are some great palaeographers and Latinists around in this place, if they think different, they can tell me so
RE: 116v - Anton - 22-05-2021
Thx Helmut, yes of course if it's a "p" then the whole stuff will make other sense, I considered the option of "um en" hinted by the Rakanua's example.
Looking at the last line, the descenders of p's aren't short really, they have just faded out. This is best seen in "p" in palden, which is adjacent with the Voynichese y - which has its own descender faded out as well.
But the upper portions look similar indeed.
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 22-05-2021
Example Alemannic:
"es gaht umen maa" ( es geht um einen Mann ) ( it is about a man ). Masculine variant.
"es gaht ume frau" ( es geht um eine Frau ) ( it's about a woman ) feminine use.
In the context, "ume frau" can also mean "umere frau".
Varianten.
amen, imen, umen, v(o)men
anere, inere, umere, v(o)nere....frau
pox leber umen zheile
Bockleber um ihn zu heilen (pox liver to cure him)