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+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - -JKP- - 06-05-2021
So far I've managed to find approximately 1200 examples of handwriting that are ROUGHLY similar to the script on 116v and 17r. However, I only consider about 40 to be reasonable matches, and only a few to be good matches (i.e., scribes who learned the same style, along with some regional idiosyncrasies).
Here are a few examples (from four different countries). It would take too much room to show the top 20 (or even the top 10), so I am posting just a sampler for now. I will have to use some other format (probably PDF) to post all of them along with identifying information and explanations.
These are not in a specific order because some letters match better than others:
![[Image: 116vSimilarScripts.png]](https://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/116vSimilarScripts.png)
Note that many scribes wrote two forms of "d" (the d with a closed loop and one with an open loop).
Some scribes used both a long-cee and a regular-cee, some used only regular-cee.
Many scribes wrote final letters both with and without an extra tail at the end (a descender). Many scribes do this for "n", "m", and "h".
Caveat: We do not know for certain whether the VMS "d" shape on 116v is a "d" or an "s" or a Voynich character, but it's reasonable to think it is maybe "d", "s" or both (depending on position, as in final position it might be "s", for example).
We don't know for sure if 116v was penned by the same person as 17r, but I am reasonably confident that it is the same scribe. I should point out that the character at the end of lucz is probably not a "z", it is probably the abbreviation symbol that resembles a rotated "m" (we don't have a forum font that writes this character), but many scribes wrote it the same as "z" so I put it in the "close enough" category, for now.
I have closer matches for individual letters, but I didn't post them because if 60% of the alphabet does not match well, it's usually a coincidence if a specific letter is the same. I was looking for good individual scores (for single letters) TOGETHER with a good overall score.
RE: 116v - Searcher - 06-05-2021
(06-05-2021, 02:23 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Note that many scribes wrote two forms of "d" (the d with a closed loop and one with an open loop).Hi JKP!
...
Caveat: We do not know for certain whether the VMS "d" shape on 116v is a "d" or an "s" or a Voynich character, but it's reasonable to think it is maybe "d", "s" or both (depending on position, as in final position it might be "s", for example).
I have closer matches for individual letters, but I didn't post them because if 60% of the alphabet does not match well, it's usually a coincidence if a specific letter is the same. I was looking for good individual scores (for single letters) TOGETHER with a good overall score.
As you collected so many examples, and as you didn't show the best matches of individual letters, could I ask you, did you ever meet "d" or "s" that look exactly as the glyph "8" in the VMs, including those that on f116v? Excuse me, if I missed this.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 07-05-2021
(06-05-2021, 10:27 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Hi JKP!
As you collected so many examples, and as you didn't show the best matches of individual letters, could I ask you, did you ever meet "d" or "s" that look exactly as the glyph "8" in the VMs, including those that on f116v? Excuse me, if I missed this.
Searcher, yes, but only a few. It's not super common. I will include them when I get this written up. I'm trying to carve out some time to finish it.
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 07-05-2021
It's the weekend, the beer is cold and ready.
Let's take a look in the bag of tricks and assume......
Let's take a look at the possible keyword "taurus" and compare it with the first VM word "aror".
I notice that a and o are twisted. "orar"
According to the Latin base form corresponding to "orare".
"orare" basic form, according to German thinking "orar" would be the command form.
I was surprised that it also means to pray.
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]If it is a curse above, one could interpret the sentence that way.
[/font]
"Pray properly (strongly, loudly, firmly, etc.) (im) val the upper, so nim.......
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]In German: Say the curse correctly or it will come back on you.[/font]
RE: 116v - Anton - 07-05-2021
Yes, in fact "oro ut..." (I pray that...) is a common Latin formula. Linguist Keith Massey believes that that's how the beginning of the Shugborough inscription is decrypted.
Regarding the VMS, I'm afraid of Latin substitutions...
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 07-05-2021
I know it is dangerous to assume Latin here.
I wouldn't have done it if it wasn't written in VM.
But I am doing it because many references point to a bi-lingual region. Possibly also 3 languages.
I don't assume Latin directly, more like Latin.
But it is the origin of the dialect forms, and the only one I have.
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 13-05-2021
I don't want to say anything about this picture.
So I just let it work and wait to see what is to be said.
RE: 116v - Pardis Motiee - 17-05-2021
The letters are different from what we see in other pages, so I think this part was added later by readers and not the writer.
RE: 116v - Rakanua - 18-05-2021
I just found a mention of "poxleber." The word appears in a text on regulations for butchers (fleischhackher) in Kitzbühel (Tyrol):
"Ain poxleber umb ain kreutzer."
The text is part of a document from 1503 ("Satzung der Bürger in Markt- und Gewerbesachen"), a transcription of which is included in the appendix of "Die älteren Stadtrechtsquellen von Kitzbühel" [1] by Dr. Ferd. Kogler (copyright Tiroler Landesmuseum Ferdinandeum).
The word "poxleber" can be found on page 89.
Sorry if this has been posted before (the forum search didn't show any corresponding results). If it hasn't, this adds to the evidence that a person living in that region in the 15th century could have spelled the word in that way.
[1] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: 116v - Koen G - 18-05-2021
I don't remember anyone actually finding "poxleber", though there are other forum members who have been following this subject more closely. This looks like good evidence, and an excellent first post
