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+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 04-05-2021
(03-05-2021, 07:18 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(03-05-2021, 04:22 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
One says, this is "probiren". Where's the argument? Are there any examples where probiren is abbreviated as pbren? Maybe there are, and that would be just excellent, but they should be referenced.
...
I don't have an answer, but I can offer an opinion based on years of reading medieval scripts and manuscripts. The "pro" part can be justified IF the tail of the p had a curved slash across the descender that was obliterated. It was a very common symbol/abbreviation for "pro".
However, the missing "i" is usually indicated with a macron/apostrophe and there isn't one. So, if it is prob(i)ren, the slash on "p" is no longer visible and the macron standing in for "i" has been omitted (which is rare but not impossible, they usually were pretty consistent with macrons).
JKP,
I think you dont see the real issue as well, the 116v sribe leaves off things, letters, macrons, loops, no matter what reason he had
RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 04-05-2021
(03-05-2021, 10:10 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One more question: could "val8en / pal8en" be "palsen", meaning "balsam"?
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Can "balsam ob[e]ren" or "balsam probieren" be correct and / or meaningfull?
Interesting idea, the problem is the 8, which is dificult to see as something other as a d, as a round s it only stands in the end of a word
RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 04-05-2021
@ Searcher
Wall den oberen, so nimm Geissmilch.
Ball den oberen [Theil], so nimm Geissmilch.
Walzen oberen, so nimm Geissmilch.
Fall den oberen, so nimm Geissmilch.
These sentences are grammatially correct, if you take Wall and so on as imperatives, but they dont make sense
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 04-05-2021
(04-05-2021, 08:27 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(03-05-2021, 07:18 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(03-05-2021, 04:22 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
One says, this is "probiren". Where's the argument? Are there any examples where probiren is abbreviated as pbren? Maybe there are, and that would be just excellent, but they should be referenced.
...
I don't have an answer, but I can offer an opinion based on years of reading medieval scripts and manuscripts. The "pro" part can be justified IF the tail of the p had a curved slash across the descender that was obliterated. It was a very common symbol/abbreviation for "pro".
However, the missing "i" is usually indicated with a macron/apostrophe and there isn't one. So, if it is prob(i)ren, the slash on "p" is no longer visible and the macron standing in for "i" has been omitted (which is rare but not impossible, they usually were pretty consistent with macrons).
JKP,
I think you dont see the real issue as well, the 116v sribe leaves off things, letters, macrons, loops, no matter what reason he had
I said it was rare but not impossible. I am quite open to the possibility that he left them out.
On 17v, which I am pretty sure is the same scribe as 116v, he included a macron.
RE: 116v - Tobias - 04-05-2021
(04-05-2021, 09:50 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@ Searcher
Wall den oberen, so nimm Geissmilch.
Ball den oberen [Theil], so nimm Geissmilch.
Walzen oberen, so nimm Geissmilch.
Fall den oberen, so nimm Geissmilch.
These sentences are grammatially correct, if you take Wall and so on as imperatives, but they dont make sense
If you take it as imperatives, "Wall" and "Ball" could be correct (from ballen as in to make a fist or to form a ball; wallen as in to form/construct a wall around smth.)
Walzen oberen is not correct, it should be Walz den oberen or (Wir) walzen den oberen.
Fall den oberen would be Fäll den oberen, at least in modern german.
RE: 116v - Searcher - 04-05-2021
Thanks, Helmut and Tobias!
I'll try to work at the "palsen" version, trying to find an explanation for the round "s" here. I won't be surprised if they play not usual role here.
And I want to make a note about the central text which looks like mix of Latin and Greek.
I looked through the thread quickly and payd attention to ReneZ's post where he wrote that someone supposed that the word "ahia" may mean "hagia". In the light of my later examination, it is one more evidence that the scribe uses Latin transliteration of some Greek words. "αγια Μαρια" is really common Greek word combination, an analogue of "Saint Mary". The scribe just uses not usual transliteration "agios", "agia", but changes "g" with "h".
As well, the previous word "vix" can be not Latin "hardly", but Greek transliteration of "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view." (a cough, coughing). Of course, it can't be said for sure, but may be possible.
So why did the scribe transliterate Greek words? I suppose he/she used them as magical words, so that the other people not to know that they are just Greek words. Similarly, Latin words are used nowadays in fantasy litarature and films, as magical spells.
In addition, I find interesting that, as it is turned, Greek "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view." has a few meanings, in particular, it is also a magic word for blood.
RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 04-05-2021
JKP,
I think you dont see the real issue as well, the 116v sribe leaves off things, letters, macrons, loops, no matter what reason he had
[/quote]
I said it was rare but not impossible. I am quite open to the possibility that he left them out.
On 17v, which I am pretty sure is the same scribe as 116v, he included a macron.
JKP,
On 17r, the strange thing is that the macron is superfluous, I mean there is a m. too much, there is lucem or lucet anyway and there would be no m. in a normal text
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 04-05-2021
The other words aren't "normal" either (like "mallier"). I sometimes wonder if the text on 116v and 17r are lightly encoded.
RE: 116v - CarlL - 05-05-2021
Perhaps the word “mallier” is actually two words “mal lier”.
RE: 116v - Searcher - 05-05-2021
Interesting facts about miltos:
Miltos (or Milton) was most commonly known in Antiquity and the Middle Ages as Lemnia sphragis, Terra Lemnia or Terra sigillata (sealed earth). It was used as a medicine, for this, it was purified, shaped as a pill, sealed with a stamp and dried. Usually it were stamped with the figure of a goat, and later, with the image of Artemis.
Dioscorides asserts that the clay was mixed with goat's blood and thereafter stamped with the figure of a goat (Materia Medica, book v, 97), but Galenus questions his assertion (De simplicium medicamentorum temperamentis ac facultatibus. 9.2)
Quote:"The Lemnian Earth comes from a cave-like hollow on the island Lemnos. It is dug out there and mixed with goat's blood, the people form it to pills and seal those with a seal with a goat on it, called 'goat’s seal' because of this practice. It is very useful against deadly poisons. Taken mixed in wine it forces to vomit the poisons. It is a good remedy against bites and stings of poisonous animals. Some use it for cleansing rituals and it is very useful against dysentery." (De materia medica. 5.113)
Quote:"In medicine it is very highly esteemed. Applied to the eyes in the form of a liniment, it allays defluxions and pains in those organs, and arrests the discharges from lachrymal fistulas. To persons vomiting blood, it is administered with vinegar to drink. It is taken also internally for affections of the spleen and kidneys; and by females for the purpose of arresting flooding. It is employed too, to counteract the effects of poisons, and of stings inflicted by sea or land serpents; hence it is that it is so commonly used as an ingredient in antidotes." (Naturalisl Historia. 35, 33f)You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..