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+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - -JKP- - 03-05-2021
I don't think the "i" in "mich" could ever have been "l". It has a serif, the same as the other "i" letters on the folio. In fact, this long leading serif (also called an "approach stroke") on "i" is one of the distinctive characteristics of this person's handwriting style.
Here are some examples of the letter "i" with a long approach stroke:
![[Image: LetteriLongSerif.png]](https://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/LetteriLongSerif.png)
The letter "l" (ell) would not have a tickmark that was so prominent on the left and not at all visible on the right.
There are scrapes in the parchment running through the long-ess in "so" but I don't see any scrapes around the "i" in "mich".
RE: 116v - Anton - 03-05-2021
The idea is that the present "i" is the altogether later introduction. The lower portion of L with the tickmark was misinterpreted for "i" and re-entered as such.
Something which I'm not confident in, but just as an example of an answer to the question where did the L disappear.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 03-05-2021
Anton, I agree that there are parts of this folio that look scraped or acid-wiped, there are parts that are unclear, there are parts that seem to maybe indicate a second hand (maybe, I'm not positive, even after years of looking at it), but the parchment behind the "i" in mich is one of the cleanest parts of the folio.
I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but it doesn't look to me like anything was added or changed in that specific spot where the "i" is and the style of it matches the other "i" letters on the folio.
RE: 116v - ReneZ - 03-05-2021
Many things with respect to the MS are not exact science. There is rarely such a thing as "proof" in the humanities. The word "believe" may seem too arbitrary, but it is related to presenting convincing information, and a convincing argument.
Now the problem is that 80% of the people reading and writing here do not know German, and another (different) 80% have no experience in reading old texts. As harsh as it may sound, the opinion of these people doesn't matter.
Interestingly, the few things related to the Voynich MS that are scientifically based and reproducible, namely the C-14 dating and the forensic analysis of the inks and pigments, are also ignored by some fraction of the Voynich amateur community, when it comes to defending fancy theories.
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 03-05-2021
"balden", to be precise, means "bald ein""soon in".
Sometimes it is "en" ending and sometimes it stands for a one.
To be compared with the North German "bald'ne".
Old McDonald had ne Farm....
But since I see neither a "b" nor a "p" in the VM text, this is unnecessary. And a "pb" binding will not exist in this way. You have to use a lot of imagination, otherwise it won't work.
And it is absolute nonsense to make a pbren into a " probieren" try.
Mer wend en. = Wir wollen ein = We want a
Nim'si = Nimm sie = Take them
nim'en = Nimm ein = Take one
wänn'd en gsesch = wenn Du Ihn siehst = when you see Him
Now one, suddenly becomes one person.
You also have to pay attention to the swallowing pause, it turns 2 words into one, and sometimes one word into 2
As I said, it is individual. Only the whole sentence counts
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 03-05-2021
Aga, the reason I have trouble with your interpretations is because you are trying so hard to make it grammatical and comprehensible, but it was not necessarily meant to be so or, alternately, it was written by someone who didn't know German very well (a non-native speaker). These two possibilities have to be considered as well.
The more it gets changed into something "pretty" (as we say in the computer industry), the farther it strays from the original data.
RE: 116v - Searcher - 03-05-2021
I have a few questions. Don't consider them as a solution. I just want to clarify something for myself. I'm so sorry that this thread leads to such disputes, but the issue is still unsolved. I just want to know opinions of the German speaking members.
1. I composed a few sentences, whether they are meaningfull or not, I'm just interested whether they are correct grammatically, and how they will be in translation:
Wall den oberen, so nimm Geissmilch.
Ball den oberen [Theil], so nimm Geissmilch.
Walzen oberen, so nimm Geissmilch.
Fall den oberen, so nimm Geissmilch.
2. Could the Nederlands "Valt den" be used in a text in German instead of "Wenn der/n"? Does it make sense without a verb in the first part of the sentence? (Wenn den oberen, so nimm Geissmilch) Can it be transformed into "valden"?
Thank you in advance!
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 03-05-2021
@JKP
First and foremost it is about understanding and not interpretation.
There is also another hint where I hold on to it.
Let's just call it dovetail pinnacles.
Since I know exactly that these do not occur either in the north or in the midlands, I do not need to compare them with MHD and North German in writing and language. And having someone who doesn't speak German explain something to me doesn't make it any easier. They see the individual words but don't understand the meaning.
I would need years to explain everything. But the whole thing is a hopeless undertaking, because there is no place for a simple solution in the VM. One is stuck.
I also know that bananas are not found in the Alps, but you are welcome to look for them.
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 03-05-2021
@Searcher
To draw conclusions about what the first 2 VM words might mean, it would be reasonable to compare them in frequency in the rest of the text.
The more often, the greater the probability of a hit.
And also where they are at the beginning of a sentence, this makes it easier to draw conclusions, preferably with a picture.
RE: 116v - Anton - 03-05-2021
(03-05-2021, 08:02 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Many things with respect to the MS are not exact science. There is rarely such a thing as "proof" in the humanities.
Science does not have to be exact to be science. Humanities are science still.
(03-05-2021, 08:02 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The word "believe" may seem too arbitrary, but it is related to presenting convincing information, and a convincing argument.
"Convincing" is in itself too arbitrary and, which is important, subjective. However, the issue with most readings of the VMS German marginalia is exactly that they are not convincing, from one point or another.
(03-05-2021, 08:02 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As harsh as it may sound, the opinion of these people doesn't matter.
That's certainly not true, we have plenty of examples even in this forum when people not proficient in some subject field make keen observations and valuable suggestions. We have, further, some examples, even in this forum, of people proficient in some subject field apparently failing with their suggestions. It's important whether those who do have specific knowledge and expericence can produce "convincing argument" to those who don't. And if they cannot, then they should rather admit it, and not hide behind qualification and the ignorance of the general public, that's really a cheap shot, I'm strictly and openly against that. To be clear, I don't mean anybody in person, but raise my spear at the dangerous (in my opinion) and counter-productive discourse of argument by authority that somehow emerged in this thread.