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+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - Koen G - 22-04-2016
JKP - I read your post and find it very plausible. The messy word does look as if the scribe changed his mind and tried to write out the ligature more fully, then changed his mind again and just started a new word.
Are you sure it's cere and not tere though?
RE: 116v - ReneZ - 22-04-2016
(22-04-2016, 09:53 AM)-JKP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.René, I tried responding to your message here, but it got too long and I needed pictures to explain it so I ended up posting a blog.
For those who are interested:
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Many thanks! The text indeed looks as if it has been amended, and the reading is quite uncertain.
(22-04-2016, 09:56 AM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Rene, on your opinion, could the first letter in the last word of the first line be "k"?
Hello YM,
no it does not look like a medieval K to me. I don't think that it could be anything except a p.
The one suggested by JKP would seem quite unusual to me as well, but I am no expert.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 22-04-2016
(22-04-2016, 10:53 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP - I read your post and find it very plausible. The messy word does look as if the scribe changed his mind and tried to write out the ligature more fully, then changed his mind again and just started a new word.
Are you sure it's cere and not tere though?
I'm not sure of any of it, it's just one way of possibly reading not only the shapes, but the situation.
To me the messy word looks more accidental than intentional (like a mistake) in which case who knows what was originally intended.
If it were originally a "t" with something following that was changed, then "tere" (or something else) is entirely possible.
If it were originally written as a VMS bench, then it might not be a "t".
If it were originally a conventional Latin "bench" ligature then many combinations of characters are possible.
The interpretation hinges partly on whether the word that follows (cere) is a corrected rewriting of the previous messy text or somewhat independent of it. If the second word is not a correction of the previous, then the messy word could be many different things, "tev", "tav", "ter", "cer", "tær" or "tœ", for example.
RE: 116v - Anton - 22-04-2016
Quote:In Latin, olla (jar) = ola (varia lectio)
Interesting!
But given the subsequent "dabas" (= "<you> gave", like someone gave a jar to somebody), if "ola" relates to this, then I think it should have been in accusative declension form ("olum")?!
Even if we consider dative (like someone gave something to a jar), then it would have been "olae"?!
RE: 116v - VViews - 22-04-2016
These are probably irrelevant but I'll contribute them anyway:
"Oladalas" (variant of "oldalas") in Hungarian: Page, face, side.
Sakas: A people from eastern Scythia, who fought Alexander. Ola Sakas= all Sakas people? Like I said before I don't know Greek so this is probably grammatically incorrect, but I like how this one fits nicely with the Alexander romance story...
RE: 116v - Searcher - 22-04-2016
(22-04-2016, 04:05 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But given the subsequent "dabas" (= "<you> gave", like someone gave a jar to somebody), if "ola" relates to this, then I think it should have been in accusative declension form ("olum")?!
Even if we consider dative (like someone gave something to a jar), then it would have been "olae"?!
I agree, correctly - "olam dabas", "in olam dabas" would be just perfect.
If only "ola" has a bar above the last "a", but, unfortunately, there is no symbol.
RE: 116v - Searcher - 22-04-2016
I want to add a couple of links which may be useful to my supposition about: anchiton, olea, miltos, cere and, possibly, teer.
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Also there are many recipes with these components, but not in such exact composition.
RE: 116v - Diane - 24-04-2016
David,
Yes, some of the 'ex libris' curses are brilliant, aren't they?
I think it would be a bit much to go tossing milk and liver about, though you never know with collectors.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 26-04-2016
(22-04-2016, 06:13 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The word "tar" is one of the words I find most difficult to figure out. The "a" looks quite similar to the "a" or "ei" in gasmich or geismich. They do not look like normal a's and I wonder if they should be read as "ei", "ai" or something else.
There are too many strokes just to read "tar".
...
I would agree with René and searcher and anyone else who's proposed it, that tar is a sensible interpretation (maybe even the most likely one). IMO, the end character looks more like an "r" than a "v" (the "v" shapes on the last line curl in a little and the "r" doesn't appear to do that) and it can certainly be a slightly too-large and slightly-differently-slanted "a" in the background, plus the first letter has a slight tick in the curved stroke but...
I like to propose alternatives because 1) t and c were often written interchangeably in medieval documents and more importantly 2) it seems wise to keep the door/mind open, to add to the pool of possibilities, until something more definite is known.
The "ahia" word fits into the same category...
I mentioned it could possibly be a "k" because some scribes wrote an "h" with an added leg rather than the conventional small-looped "k" of the time. That doesn't mean I think that "k" is the most likely reading, I think it's a long shot and that it's probably "hi", but... knowing that there were several ways to write a "k" and knowing that the figure-8 shape is already unconventional, I like to keep the door open to other readings.
And speaking of ahia, I don't know if anyone has mentioned this (it's hard to come up with original observations for something that's been studied for centuries) but Ahia is an old testament prophet and biblical names and first-letter references were often included in charms. Since something that looks like "maria" with an interposed cross (ma+ria) comes next and maria is the later interpretation of mariam or miriam, then invoking Ahia and Maria in the same line, especially so close together, would not be out of place "if" it's a charm or a healing charm. Just a thought.
RE: 116v - ReneZ - 27-04-2016
I remember one interpretation, but not sure by whom, where 'ahia' was considered to mean (h)agia i.e. Greek for holy or saint. What I don't remember is whether use of ahia in this sense was attested elsewhere. That is of course important.