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+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 02-05-2021
The real problem lies in the meaning of the sentence.
It only makes sense with a "tz or cz". Whereas cz is the Bavarian variant.
Your work is great, but to judge it, the letter alone is not enough. I need the whole word, preferably the whole sentence because of the context.
So "gang und gantz" is not the same, even if it looks the same.
Bring me the sentences.
"so nim gas milch o" is a wrong german. Not even in the dialects would it be written like that. The order is simply not right.
With "tz" everything looks different, grammar is correct, order is correct and the whole sentence from " valden to o" is correct.
Sorry, it's not gaismilch, and not just because it's my dialect. It's just all wrong. Reading alone is no longer enough here, you can also hear it.
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 02-05-2021
Now it's about what is meant and the connection to the upper part.
Possibly we have a curse. This is ended with the word "ma+ria, maria".
As in other curses, the curse is lifted again with ave maria. It has done its work.
The meaning of valsen, valden to o, means:
If I ( valsen) do something wrong ( burn), it takes me too. It is a warning and not a recipe where goat's milk would also work.
That's how I understand it from the dialect.
RE: 116v - Anton - 02-05-2021
(02-05-2021, 08:08 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1) What does 'gas mich' mean
"gas" is Mittelhochdeutsch for "quickly, promptly", "mich" is simply mich, so the whole stuff then expands as "so take me quickly", and if "o" is additionally counted as auch, then it becomes "so take me quickly as well"
(02-05-2021, 08:08 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.2) aror sheey is an obvious quotation, whatever it means, followed by palden probiren/try it out soon and the beginning of a recipe, So nim/Now take
Yes, that makes sense in my opinion, only I consider it not a recipe (too short for a recipe), but rather an "instruction" of how to use the stuff enciphered with "aror sheey" in combination with the spell. If "palden" can be read as modern sobald, then the whole line would be as follows:
Having taken (or, literally, tried (probieren)) the aror sheey, then quickly cast (or use or, literally, take (nimm)) the spell (mich)
The whole speech is in this interpretation as if on behalf of the instrument itself - like those labels "take me" in Alice in Wonderland.
In German this, to the best of my knowledge, and with the help of Google translator, would be thus:
Sobald [sie] aror sheey probiert [haben], so nimm mich schnell
One problem that I see with this, is that I'm not sure if probiren (pbren) is correct from the grammar viewpoint, the grammar suggests probirt (pbrt).
A year ago I wrote a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. about this, and in fact we discussed it above in the thread, but the latter is already so monstrous in size that discussions quickly get forgotten and we are going in circles.
That ornate descender should be taken seriously, it definitely is there not for nothing, but the idea is vague. Looks like it's intended to connect the last line (or the "mich" in particular) with the spell (or the "maria" in particular), and, possibly, with the "o" shape at the same time. Maybe the shape of the line hints that the spell should be worn on the neck, since it looks like a pendant indeed.
It was common to wear spells on one's neck.
Quote:Dissen brieff sol er tragen an dem hals und alle die wille er den brieff an dem hals treit so nim dert in den siech tagen
(Cod. Sang. 754, p. 80)
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 02-05-2021
You also have to consider when I see it as goat's milk.
To what can I also take the goat's milk, or as an alternative also goat's milk.
I don't see any other ingredient where it or the milk could belong.
Where are the other ingredients? Liver? Nothing indicates additional plants or anything else.
The palden, pbren version doesn't exist like that. I don't know who comes up with these ideas. Here I really need written examples before I would even consider it. It simply violates every rule.
RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 02-05-2021
@ Anton
gas is not MHD
I have some linguistc and logiacl problems with the remainder of your post
We have discussed these things ad infinitum not only here but in the old mailing list as well and there is always someone who thinks he can find new interpretations for things linguistically and palaeographiially obvvious
RE: 116v - Anton - 02-05-2021
(02-05-2021, 03:09 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@ Anton
gas is not MHD
It is.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(02-05-2021, 03:09 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.there is always someone who thinks he can find new interpretations for things linguistically and palaeographiially obvvious
Things will be obvious when the plethora of German speakers here will agree upon a common interpretation, we're still very far from that
RE: 116v - geoffreycaveney - 02-05-2021
(02-05-2021, 11:50 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(02-05-2021, 08:08 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1) What does 'gas mich' mean
"gas" is Mittelhochdeutsch for "quickly, promptly", "mich" is simply mich, so the whole stuff then expands as "so take me quickly", and if "o" is additionally counted as auch, then it becomes "so take me quickly as well"
(02-05-2021, 08:08 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.2) aror sheey is an obvious quotation, whatever it means, followed by palden probiren/try it out soon and the beginning of a recipe, So nim/Now take
Yes, that makes sense in my opinion, only I consider it not a recipe (too short for a recipe), but rather an "instruction" of how to use the stuff enciphered with "aror sheey" in combination with the spell. If "palden" can be read as modern sobald, then the whole line would be as follows:
Having taken (or, literally, tried (probieren)) the aror sheey, then quickly cast (or use or, literally, take (nimm)) the spell (mich)
The whole speech is in this interpretation as if on behalf of the instrument itself - like those labels "take me" in Alice in Wonderland.
In German this, to the best of my knowledge, and with the help of Google translator, would be thus:
Sobald [sie] aror sheey probiert [haben], so nimm mich schnell
One problem that I see with this, is that I'm not sure if probiren (pbren) is correct from the grammar viewpoint, the grammar suggests probirt (pbrt).
As I proposed in another thread, I have read and interpreted [aror sheey] as Middle English "irour geth", meaning "[having] suffered/earned/begotten anger/wrath". This interpretation could fit smoothly into the rest of your reading and interpretation of this statement as follows:
Sobald [sie] irour geth [haben], probieren so nimm mich schnell
Meaning: "As soon as [you have] suffered anger, try then cast/take me (i.e., the spell) quickly"
I observe that calming and controlling one's anger and wrath was a prominent theme both in ancient and medieval times -- indeed "anger/wrath" (mēnin) is the first word of the Iliad -- and it appears that spells did indeed exist for the purpose of calming and controlling one's anger.
This reading and interpretation would resolve the issue with probiren/probirt that you raise: Now it is [sheey] = Middle English "geth" that is the past participle, rather than "probiren".
The German grammar now seems to be more or less acceptable if not perfectly idiomatic...which might reflect a non-native German speaker's attempt to write this statement in the language.
Geoffrey
RE: 116v - Anton - 02-05-2021
I don't think that grammar improves, because "nimm" is imperative. Besides, it's totally inexplicable why one would mix Middle English in. The whole page has nothing of Middle English, neither there are any middle English marginalia in the VMS at all.
RE: 116v - geoffreycaveney - 02-05-2021
If one were trying to write in a completely secret cipher in Middle English (and perhaps French as well), in a location where English (and perhaps French as well) were widely spoken and known, one would indeed try to be very careful not to write a single word in English (and perhaps French as well) visibly in the plain. German on the other hand might be a relatively much safer choice for the marginalia where one could not avoid or resist writing something in a plaintext known natural language.
An interpretation which could reconcile "probiren" and "nimm" could be the following:
Sobald [sie] irour geth probieren [haben], so nimm mich schnell
Meaning: "As soon as [you have] suffered anger/wrath to try it, then cast/take me (i.e., the spell) quickly"
In other words, "As soon as you have suffered enough anger/wrath to try it, then cast/take me (the spell) quickly"
I'm not completely certain of the precisely best German syntax of the first clause. Perhaps the original writer was not completely certain of it either.
RE: 116v - ReneZ - 02-05-2021
In recipes, " so nimm" is common, and the object is always an ingredient.
" So nimm mich" (=me) really does not fit here at all.
Also, the word order: "nim gas mich" (take fast me) is as awkward in German as it is in English, but I don't have sufficient knowledge about ME German to make that a firm statement.