+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
RE: 116v - Anton - 28-04-2021
Yes, there are traces of descenders indeed, I think we discussed that above.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 28-04-2021
After years of searching, I did find some evidence (and also examples) of flat-bottomed "v" characters in medieval manuscripts. It's not rare, but also not super-common. But even so, it still looks to me like part of the parchment has been wiped underneath the last line and that there were probably (originally) descenders on those letters, making them open-topped "p" (which also exists).
I have also found a couple of scribes who wrote "p" with a very short descender, but this is rare and the descender tends to be blunt (which does not appear to be the case on 116v).
I remain open to the possibility of flat "v" but am leaning somewhat toward "p".
----------------------
Edit [addition]: I think I've already posted some examples of flat vee, but in case I haven't here are some examples. This is a very quick grab (I'm busy today), but the shape on the left is a regular vee and the one on the right the scribe's version of flat-bottom vee. Sorry, I didn't have time to choose the best ones or remove the nulls, but this is probably better than nothing:
![[Image: FlatVee2021.png]](https://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/FlatVee2021.png)
RE: 116v - Searcher - 29-04-2021
(28-04-2021, 04:08 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yes, there are traces of descenders indeed, I think we discussed that above.Yes, discussed as a possible "probieren".
It still seems to me that we considered not all possible versions. So I appeal to German speaking forum members.
Actually, I considered combination "vallen probren" (fallen properen) as "casus proprius" in Latin. I don't know whether it's possible.
But still, I have one more idea, maybe, also crazy. Earlier I suggested "falten" (to fold) and "walzen" (to roll) for "val8en", but, if I'm not mistaken, never suggested the second word as "Obers" (Sahne, cream). According to a theory that words "gasmich" in the same line may mean "goat's milk", I see no reason why "ubren" can not be incorrect regional form of "Obers" - "Uber"/"Ober", consequently, "obren" or "obern" (adj. acc.). Maybe, this adjective plays role of a noun, as some noun next to it is just dropped. For example, milk cream was often mentioned as an "upper part" (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Oberteil), or, maybe, it is "Obere" (subst.) that was used in the same sense as "Obers". In Ukrainian, for example, cream also is still called "вершки" that means "tops" (plural).
I try to make some sense of this sentense and understand that cream can be beaten or shaken up, as well, turned, curdled. It is interesting whether words "falten" or "walzen" could be used in that sense, instead of "gerinnen" or "schlagen". Keeping in mind word "lab" in the corner, I think more about "curdle" version.
Your thoughts?
RE: 116v - Searcher - 29-04-2021
You won't believe, but, it seems, I understood the whole sense of the first and the last lines. Why those lines? Because I think that they are absolutely not connected to the central lines from "anchiton" to "maria". And, possibly they are written by different people and, even in different time. Maybe, exactly the first line and the last one are some kind of palimpsest. As a possibility.
That word combination we though to be goat liver (pox leber) can be not exactly liver, it can be the same as "lab". As well, possibly, the last word of the first line is similar to word "geliefern" or "liefern" by sense.
Quote:Laben, Leber und Liefern - Im Nieders. heißt die Milch lebbig, oder lebig wenn sie zu fehr geronnen ist. In den Mundarten ist dieses Wort in einigen Gegenden im männlichen, in andern aber im weiblichen Geschlen te üblich. Im hochdeutschen ist das ungewisse das gewöhnlichste. Es mit zwei a Laab, zu schreiben, ist unnöthig, weil der einfache Endlant die Länge des vorher gehenden Selbstlautes hinlänglich hezeid net. Streift man doch auch nur Graß, Stab, Brot, Thal u. f. f. übrigens wird das Lab in der engern Behentung in einigen Gegenden Renne, Rinne, Rinnsel, Käsereinen, Nieders. Melkrinse, Käsehärte, Rogen, und im Nieders. auch Strämsel, Strammels, genannt, von strammen, straff machen.
Quote:Libern - verb. reg. act. et reciproc. welches im gemeinen Leben einiger Gegenben für laben und liefern oder geliefern üblid ist. Sich lebern, gerinnen. Geleberte Milch, gelabte, oder geronnene. S. Lab, Leber, und Geliefern.
Source:You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
P. S. Excuse me for mistakes in the transcription, texts in German type are too hard for me
RE: 116v - Anton - 29-04-2021
My question on RG has no answers in a year except the one I already quoted above. Although not that many reads - only 35
As long as the opposite is not proved, I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that "mich" may have the "l" omitted and stand for milk. I really don't understand why there would be so much talk about milk, when there's no milk at all. Neither in the text nor in the imagery. A goat is depicted (I think it's a lamb, but for the argument's sake let it be a goat). So what? Is milk the only thing that goats may suggest? Hardly that.
RE: 116v - Searcher - 30-04-2021
(29-04-2021, 10:11 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As long as the opposite is not proved, I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that "mich" may have the "l" omitted and stand for milk. I really don't understand why there would be so much talk about milk, when there's no milk at all. Neither in the text nor in the imagery. A goat is depicted (I think it's a lamb, but for the argument's sake let it be a goat). So what? Is milk the only thing that goats may suggest? Hardly that.I think that the interpretation "gasmi[l]ch" is the most probable for now, as there is no better explanation. Of course, one can't assert that the circle pictogram with dots at the end of the line implies exactly milk, but, at the same time, I think, no pictogram could assure onyone that it shows exactly milk, even if it would be a pot similar to that on f66r. I can suppose only one: the scribe just missed "l". Errors and typos, I think, are peculiar for all people, ancient, medieval or modern.
I found a text that contains word You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., I can't clearly understand (from Google translation) what it means, as much as what "huenr" is. Maybe, it is a typo. I only understand that, in 1357, Leo von Franzhausen and Katharina sell his housewife and his household with all things in it to Johann von Wildungsmauer Pfennig. It is interesting that this book, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , contains documents dated XIII - XV cc., so, possibly, it would be useful to examine them.
RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 30-04-2021
1) it is geismi[l]ch, not gas or gais, the li in Milch is usually not audible, he simply left it off, very likely the writer had not written much German but Latin
2) huenr is Hühner, chickens, they have to pay as duty ten chickens in autumn and six chickens in carnival and four 'gaismich' goose, which surly has nothing to do with goatmilk, but must be a date like vaschang/carnval
3) Here is another example of 'gaißmilch', You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: 116v - Searcher - 30-04-2021
Lab can be Leber, gaissmilch can be not gaismich...
All this is really confusing
RE: 116v - Searcher - 30-04-2021
What do you think about "walz den obren" or "walzen obren" where "obren" means "Obers" (Sahne)?
RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 30-04-2021
not much, the readable text is palden pbren and I don't think you can argue around that, I would be much happier if I knew what the connection with the Voynichese words in the same line to the left is, there must be one