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+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - -JKP- - 07-01-2020
I just found "Mandelmich" used on a forum, but the next time the person wrote it, they wrote Mandelmilch, so it looks like the first instance might have been a typo.
On a blog, it's written Mandelmilch every time except once (possibly also a typo?).
In the modern posts, Mandelmich appears to refer to almond milk every time (not marzipan), but often is mixed with Mandelmilch, so I wonder if it's simply spelling errors (spelling on the Web is pretty bad and it's pretty easy to leave out letters).
RE: 116v - Oocephalus - 07-01-2020
In the 1888 book, I'd say it's just a typo. It doesn't actually refer to "Mandelmich" as a sweet, it says "sweets, as well as almond milk and rose water" (sowie means "as well as").
In some Bavarian/Austrian dialects, it's quite common for L to drop out before a consonant, rounding or otherwise modifying the preceding vowel, e.g. Milch would be pronounced Müch. I'm not aware of any dialects where the L just drops without changing the vowel, but voynichbombe has mentioned that this does occur in one region of Austria. But note that, even in pre-modern times, speakers of such a dialect might still spell it Milch if they had learned that this was the correct spelling.
RE: 116v - Anton - 07-01-2020
I think it's useful to sum up what we have of the last line so far.
1) aror sheey - still unknown
2) [p|v]al[d|s]en [p/v]bre[n/y] - highly doubtful in transcription, and the more so in interpretation. Must bear in mind the interchangeability of p and b as the starting letter of a word. Must bear in mind that the second word may be abbreviated (the tail of the supposed n). "P" preferable to "v" as the first letter (traces of the descenders).
"Palden" as "soon" or possibly "sobald".
"Pbren" means nothing, could be abbreviated for probieren or probierend (doubtful, no examples). "Bren" suggests the same root as "brennen" (to burn). "U-" being an equivalent for "an-", "ubren" could be short for "anbrennen" (to inflame), but that's luxembourghish.
3) "So nim" - the most clear part of all. Means "so take!", or "then take!" (imperative or modal). A template component of German recipes of the era. More specific for cooking recipes than medical ones.
"rim" (imperative for "rhyme") is also possible, given the "poetic" spell above, though less likely
4) gasmich - pretty clear in transcription, but in reading undecided
a) gas mich - "quickly" ("gas" as "gahes") + "mich", the whole phrase making it "so take quickly me".
pros: "gas" has examples, "mich" is a common word
cons: no space in between, the word order is not perfert ("take quickly me" instead of "take me quickly")
in this variant, "mich" should impersonate the spell, otherwise makes no sense (unless the author himself wants to be taken by someone whom he addresses)
b) gasmich as "g[a|e]ismilch"
pros: single word fits the absence of the space between "gas" and "mich", goat milk as a drink is fit for a cooking recipe
cons: no examples of "gasmich" found elsewhere, let alone for "mich" as "milch"
5) "o"
"o" means "auch" (= also) in certain Swiss dialects. Other than that, no satisfactory explanations.
pros: "auch" would fit both 4a and 4b, in the former case specifying that the spell is to be used together with what is decribed by "aror sheey palden pbren", and in the latter case effectively terminating the recipe, preserving the recipe from being interrupted in the middle: instead of "so nim geismilch" (...und so weiter?), it becomes "so nim geismilch auch".
cons: unusual shape for this character to be a letter
RE: 116v - Anton - 07-01-2020
Let me file a question at RG about the "miLch" issue. Maybe some linguist will luckily provide an answer.
Although such questions are not easy to answer.... my question about punctuation marks got 6 reads in 5 years, which gives a rough estimate of the amount of people in the world who could look in the matter.
RE: 116v - Koen G - 07-01-2020
We might have better chances of finding out where the diphthong in geis would become a monophthong. It is likely that maps of such phenomena exist.
(For example my own dialect of Dutch, I say gèèt instead of standard Dutch geit. This happens in all words with "ei", so it's a rule that can be studied by linguists)
For milch, I have noticed that a common way of writing it is "milich". Probably the omission of L is especially unlikely in these regions. When I get home I'll check the corpus to see if milich belongs to a specific region.
RE: 116v - Anton - 07-01-2020
(07-01-2020, 05:53 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.We might have better chances of finding out where the diphthong in geis would become a monophthong.
The simplest way is just scribal mistake. Sequential "e" and "i" much resemble "a". (e.g. see the foremost example in the "geismilch" thread)
RE: 116v - Anton - 07-01-2020
MsMurQ 12, folio 94v:
This recipe pays attention to something needing be placed in a copper utensil (kupfer geschirr)
The "-fer" word in VMS You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. would be a perfect "kupfer", were it not for the "t" before "p".
I have not found the spelling "kutpfer" so far.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 07-01-2020
(07-01-2020, 04:58 PM)Oocephalus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....(sowie means "as well as").
...
Oops, yes, you are correct. I knew that and should have gotten it right. I'm in too much of a hurry (I jump in for a few moments while saving files).
RE: 116v - Anton - 07-01-2020
... to continue my previous post, reading the beginning of the word as "kutz-", in Lexer we have "kutz" = "kiz", which, in turn, is:
"junges von der ziege"
with various examples as "kizzin", "kutzin", "kizzi"
What would mean it being ended in -fer?
RE: 116v - Koen G - 07-01-2020
The MHDBDB corpus has 376 instances where "milk" is mentioned, with varying spellings.
- milch .. 219
- milich . 128
- milche .. 20
- milh ..... 2
- millich... 2
- milchlin . 1
- milech ... 1
- miliche .. 1
- mulch .... 1
- mylch .... 1
The MS that wrote "mandelmich" (without L) once, prefers to use "milch" and wrote "milich" only once.