+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
RE: 116v - Anton - 05-01-2020
"so nim" seems to be kinda "template" phrasing, it's literally scattered across the pages, e.g. in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it's encountered at least four times.
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 05-01-2020
Willst Du aber Apfelwasser machen, so nimm den Apfel nun brenn ihn auf einem ??? ( Topf ? ) nun das wasser bruch ( brauchen ) einem sichen ( kranken ) dem die Leber entzündet ist.
But if you want to make apple water, take the apple now and burn it on a ??? ( pot ? ) now the wather " bruch" need of a "siechen" ( ill ) person whose liver is inflamed.
erbfel = Äpfel = apples
we say öpfel or öbfel
RE: 116v - Koen G - 05-01-2020
(05-01-2020, 12:32 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."so nim" seems to be kinda "template" phrasing, it's literally scattered across the pages, e.g. in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it's encountered at least four times.
What is interesting is that it gives us an idea of the kind of phrase to expect before "so nim". It is often an implied conditional. Do you want to make a cake? Then take flour and...
RE: 116v - Koen G - 05-01-2020
"Valden ubren so nim gas mich"
Where we would expect something like "wildu + infinitive", there is "valden" plus a form that could indeed be an infinitive.
RE: 116v - Anton - 05-01-2020
.
(05-01-2020, 12:53 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(05-01-2020, 12:32 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."so nim" seems to be kinda "template" phrasing, it's literally scattered across the pages, e.g. in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it's encountered at least four times.
What is interesting is that it gives us an idea of the kind of phrase to expect before "so nim". It is often an implied conditional. Do you want to make a cake? Then take flour and...
That's a good methodological point. It makes sense indeed to observe the contexts of "sonims". But I don't see at as implied conditional. Consider the folio 20v that I referred to above. Let's take the second paragraph which contains three "sonims". It's above me to translate the whole lengthy passage, but it seems to be a sequential iterative procedure. First you fill the cup with something and have it half full ("hastu des ein halben becher"), then you fill it with something else and have it full ("hastu ein ganzer <sorry for my German grammar> becher"), and so on. And in between you take something (half the "mos" or the whole "mos", dunno what "mos" is), and that is expressed by "so nim". If one undertakes the complete translation of this cookery that might bring further insight.
Let's then take (so nim, if you will) the next paragraph. It appears a brief abstract (something is good ("gut") for something) followed by the detailed explanation - a format seen also elsewhere in the book. The "details" run as follows: on the eighth day before St. John's day "so nim" ye something which I can't translate etc.
Looks like "so" in "so nim" carries some modality in it, like "should". I wonder if "soll" does not descend from this "so".
As a sidenote, is "hastu" another way of saying "hast du"? Another Swiss expression like those hinted by Aga Tentakulus above in the thread?
RE: 116v - Koen G - 05-01-2020
Anton, I think as a native speaker of a Germanic language I have a different gut feeling about this.
First of all, yes, hastu is a case of clision and should be translated as "hast du". This is still extremely common in spoken Flemish today. For example, I would pronounce "hebt ge" as "hebde". The clision is so strong that in informal writing (texting with friends) I could even write "hebde" even though this form is not standard.
The hastu is the implied conditional. Have you half a cup? Then take....
Willst du ... machen, so nim... ---> IF you want to make..., THEN take...
In other words, in these cases the "so" connects the "nim" clause to the condition set by the previous clause. In case of..., then take...
I'm sure that "so nim" can be used in other cases, but the implied conditional is something I'm seeing a lot.
RE: 116v - Anton - 05-01-2020
Do you mean the "hastu" precedes the "so nim" in this passage? Like, "as soon as" or "when"?
I interpreted the "hastu" portion as the consequence, not as the cause. Like, when you have done something, you have ("du hast") the result as described. Is this the other way around? As I said, I feel uncomfortable with anything longer than a line in Middle High German.
What about the 3rd paragraph? Is the implied conditional also there?
RE: 116v - Anton - 05-01-2020
"Would you get a cup of tea, drink it immediately" - is that the English peer of the "hastu" in this context?
RE: 116v - Koen G - 05-01-2020
As your example shows, it's hard to maintain this word order in English, but yes kind of like that. "Have you tea? then drink it immediately" would be the closest without getting completely ungrammatical.
Let me check the example in the third paragraph - -
Hmm, this seems a bit different. Where's Helmut Winkler when you need him?
I don't know if the half line on top belongs with this sentence, but I guess it's a title. I would transcribe the first line of the third paragraph as follows:
"acht tag vor sant johane tag so nim die..."
--> eight days before st john's day, (then) take the...
Here, again if I'm not mistaken, the "so" links to the time expressed in the previous clause. So if confirmed by someone more capable, this would be another type of sentence to expect before "so nim".
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 05-01-2020
I've read it. I had to read it a couple of times before I understood it correctly. Here it's the grammar where something makes problems, but if you listen to the whole context it works. It's a recipe.
nim ein mos (Maas) Honig und ein pfund Zucker, hast Du aber nit (nicht) Zucker, so nim ander halb mos (anderthalb Mass = 1 1/2) versottener Honig.
nim one mos (Meuse) honey and one pound of sugar, but if you have no sugar, then nim one half mos (one and a half measure = 1 1/2) of sooty honey.
versottener Honig ? Ich denke er meint Met, Honigbier oder Honigwein. vergorener Honig.
Sooty honey ? I think he means mead, honey beer or honey wine. fermented honey