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+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - VViews - 21-04-2016
(21-04-2016, 10:41 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Could it be a direct quote from a Latin translation of the story? In that case, the use of Anchiton and portas is completely justified.
In case anyone cares, I think these are the cannibals related to this legend: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It may very well be those guys.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a version of the Alexander Romance based on the Historia de Preliis, which contains the anchiton and antichiton among the latin text. (p. 274) There is also a French version of the legend, which is itself based on the Hebrew translation which the study is about.
So we have a Greek legend translated into Latin then Hebrew then French... which is why there are nuggets of greek in the latin.
The author gives a few additional details: that the cannibals were "beyond scythia" and that the two mountains were called Practanicon and Boreon.
RE: 116v - MarcoP - 21-04-2016
Could it be "an chiton" (German?+Greek)?
RE: 116v - ReneZ - 21-04-2016
The suggestion of anchiton was already made in the earlier days. It may have been Jacques Guy. It should be possible to find this back in the earlier archives.
In a presentation on this topic in the Villa Mondragone, the proposed reading was also anchiton. I believe that this may have been the topic of the mailing list discussion referred to by Helmut. This reading was (perhaps not the final, unfortunately):
Quote:poxleber umen putriter.
+ an chiton ola dabas + multos + tc + tta. cere + portas + M +
fix + man ix + mor ix + vix + altra + matura +
... ... (two ciphered words) pals en pbrey so nim geismich O
I find the distinction between the various 'p' and 'u/v' tricky, because sometimes there's a hint of a faded descender...
RE: 116v - Koen G - 21-04-2016
In all passages I've seen, there's always an incomplete, varying list of names of the 22 peoples that got locked up. If we assume a direct or altered quote froma translation, this may be a possible explanation for the -ix -ix list, if for example the -ix is an abbreviation or symbol to end the names of peoples. Since it is followed by altra, this matches the enumeration pattern quite well.
RE: 116v - MarcoP - 21-04-2016
(21-04-2016, 11:17 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The suggestion of anchiton was already made in the earlier days. It may have been Jacques Guy. It should be possible to find this back in the earlier archives.
In a presentation on this topic in the Villa Mondragone, the proposed reading was also anchiton. I believe that this may have been the topic of the mailing list discussion referred to by Helmut. This reading was (perhaps not the final, unfortunately):
Quote:poxleber umen putriter.
+ an chiton ola dabas + multos + tc + tta. cere + portas + M +
fix + man ix + mor ix + vix + altra + matura +
... ... (two ciphered words) pals en pbrey so nim geismich O
I find the distinction between the various 'p' and 'u/v' tricky, because sometimes there's a hint of a faded descender...
Thank you, Rene.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. interprets "an" as "an[te]": I should have remembered that.
His transcription and translation are well thought and are consistent with the marginal illustrations.
RE: 116v - VViews - 21-04-2016
[font=Arial]Regarding the two enciphered words on 116v: they are often transcribed as [font=Eva]oror sheey. Looking at them with the Voyager, I read them as aror sheey.[/font][/font]
There are only 5 instances of [font=Eva]oror in the MS, based on the voynichese site.[/font]
There are 6 instances of [font=Eva]aror.[/font]
There are 144 matches for [font=Eva]sheey[/font]
If we look for a full match of either [font=Eva]oror sheey or aror sheey there are none in the whole MS.[/font]
There are four almost matches:
on 84v there is [font=Eva]oror tcheey[/font]
on 79v we find [font=Eva]aror [font=Eva]dshey[/font][/font]
[font=Arial]also on 79v is another close call: arorl sheey [/font]
and finally on 84r: [font=Eva]aror shedy[/font]
I find it interesting that the overwhelming majority of the occurrence of any of these words happens in the "balneo" and "recipes" sections.
I understand that the voynichese site is missing some words, namely those on the nine rosette foldout, where there may be more occurrences/ a better match?
RE: 116v - Searcher - 21-04-2016
Hi Anton and all!
I'm familiar with allmost all interpretations of these marginalia and always open to another solutions and opinions. The one thing I prefer for interpretation is to keep words in their real state as mush as it's possible. No doubt, it is especially difficult with abbreviations or with illegible (faded) script as in the VMs. Personally, I was against "Pox leber" a long time, but now I have to admit that it is really looks like those words, no matter that I don't know how it must be used in a certain case. The same with the word "anchiton": people divides in two groups, those who see it as "michiton" and another part that see "anchiton". So, it's naturally to search these two words. As the word "michiton" still wasn't found, I consider the word "anchiton" only one proper variant as it is a real existing, although rare, word. And we have no problem with it. To the point, I found earlier all those links with "anchiton" and posted about it in the vms-list, but, it seems, no one paid attention to it.
So, let's figure out the rest. You write that "valsen" must be "valden". Ok, if it is "valden", the rest three words are "dabad" (dabat?), "miltod" (miltot?) and "portad" (portat?) since they have the same character "8"; if it is "valsen", at least, the rest three words are "dabas", "miltos" and "portas". Most interesting for me in this case is the word "miltos". Many researchers read it as "multos", but I can't see there the letter "u", indeed. What is interesting in this word is that it has Greek origin as "anchiton", it means likely red ochre (Rubrica Sinopica) or mix of it. It was used: in medicine, in painting, and, most interesting, for protection of ship's hulls. Links below:
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I don't understand how and why those words are appeared in these marginalia, but I see that written words look just like these.
In addition, "tar" or "tere" may mean "tar" (resin) in Old English or "tree", "wood" in Dutch and in Middle Low German.
Well, whatever it is: a medicinal recipe or a recipe of some protecting material, or a protecting spell, I think, it is necessary to put together all possible interpretations from possible languages, dialects (less - reading). For example, "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view." in Middle High German is the same that verb "wagen" in the first person, singular, but for now, it seems to not fit the rest text.
As for the "gas mich", I would be glad if it really is an alternative of the writing "geiss milch", it should simplified much, if we see a precedent.
RE: 116v - ReneZ - 21-04-2016
(21-04-2016, 12:06 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. interprets "an" as "an[te]": I should have remembered that.
His transcription and translation are well thought and are consistent with the marginal illustrations.
His presentation was the first that had all of the following:
- a sound argumentation that all items of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. belong together
- a sound argumentation that this was written by the Voynich scribe, or at least one of them if there were more
- a complete reading by someone with competence in this type of handwriting
- a more or less consistent interpretation as a recipe
The main argument that this was from the (an) original scribe is that the two words in Voynichese seem to
be an integral part of the text, which were left in "code".
At the time it was very convincing. Certainly more convincing than anything I had ever read about this part
of the MS. In the mean time, I certainly doubt parts of the reading and the interpretation, because it did not
take into account the clear parallels with spells as found by several people and documented by Ellie and JKP
(links on one of the earlier entries in this thread). Helmut already disagreed with parts of the reading in the earlier
discussion in the mailing list.
From my understanding the reading and the interpretation are not completely independent from each other.
From a first coarse reading one should be able to decide the time frame, rough region and language. Many details
can only be properly read by knowing what is being said.
Having such a short piece makes it extra difficult.
While I find that the comparison MS that I pointed out in an earlier post has rather similar handwriting, there is a
vast difference between the two, in that I can basically read the text of that MS without any trouble, which
is not the case for f116v.
I have this vague recollection that 'an' could also be some sort of a conjunction in Latin, but I may be mixing
things.....
RE: 116v - Koen G - 21-04-2016
Searcher - your first links don't work, they refer to some kind of webmail where one has to login.
I see the VM as mostly related to naval trade, so to me it would make a lot of sense if a spell to protect one's ship was included in the manuscript. This miltos, which was very likely a red ochre used to waterproof ships, i.e. a protective layer on ships, might perhaps even be used metaphorically in seafarer's circles, like we would use "shield" or "cover" as metaphors for (divine) protection as well. Here's an interesting paper about the substance: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Either way, together with the "achiton", this would be the second mention of a protective substance that was applied to materials. Very interesting.
Edit: in the article I linked, the author says that all mentions of this miltos depend on Homer's using it to describe "miltos-cheeked ships", i.e. ships that have their hulls treated with the material. This is actually good news, because it means that the miltos could have been known to anyone schooled in classical literature - which would have been a whole lot of people in a whole lot of places and times.
Also:
Quote:By the fourth century, no doubt in response to shipworm, Greek merchant ships were sometimes, like the Nemi ships, sheathed in lead (or perhaps, but far more rarely, copper), and this practice seems to have become widespread during the Hellenistic period.47 In the Kyrenia ship this lead was not applied directly to the hull, but over a thin matting that Steffy describes as composed of “agave leaves, simply woven and saturated in a red-brown resinous pitch … A few intact areas of the outer hull surfaces also contained traces of the red-brown residue.”
So this means that both substances were associated with:
- Protective coating AND
- Copper plates
RE: 116v - Anton - 21-04-2016
Quote:Hmmm, could you summarise what exactly is the reason why it should read anchiton and not michiton?
I really did not see it. A very tentative explanation of what 'anchiton' could mean does not settle it in my opinion, especially
since most of the other words cannot be read with certainty.
Well, honestly that was a bit of a joke relating to that old doubt between "anchiton" and "michiton", but as the Russian proverb goes, "each joke has a bit of truth in it". The great advantage of "anchiton" is its meaningful sense, as discovered now, and this is opposed to "michiton", which would make sense probably if space is introduced to make it "michi ton", and that would also need to fit into the grammatical context.
Also (from my non-professional view), if the first letter is treated as "m", we should admit that it would be different from "m" in "marix" or "mich", which ceteris paribus makes it less probable than "a".
Now, it is important that "anchiton" is mentioned in the N. De Lyra's comments (if I am not mistaken, those were his comments?!) which, as I guess, were very widespread and known to learned people. Note that not even it is mentioned, but it is specifically rubricated in the margin, as if to put forward the association between the biblical wood "setim", on one side, and something called "anchiton" on the other side. This suggests that the notion of "anchiton" was some general place, like when a commenter deals with the text speaking of "setim", he explains: "guys, this biblical setim is nothing other than the anchiton that we all know of".
So the great advantage of "anchiton" is that it can be taken at its face value, without any superfluous explanations such as introducing spaces or considering abbreviations.
Of course, this is far from conclusive, especially until "oladabas" is demystified. The fact that "oladabas" is not separated by a cross from "anchiton" suggests that it is closely related to the latter and that the two present an expression.
Now, I would not strive for seeking explanations involving the literal meaning of anchiton, since a spell not necessarily deals with literal meanings, and may be rendered in the "abracadabra style".
As for "portas", yes that is lucrative (as I noted above), but at the same time we should be careful, cause the Latin word form would be "porta" or "portae", while "portas" looks like something Portuguese.
Well, maybe after "oladabas" is explained we will be able to decipher all those scribbles between it and "portas".
Quote:You write that "valsen" must be "valden". Ok, if it is "valden", the rest three words are "dabad" (dabat?), "miltod" (miltot?) and "portad" (portat?) since they have the same character "8"; if it is "valsen", at least, the rest three words are "dabas", "miltos" and "portas".
No, that's not necessarily correct. The 8 shape may represent "s" as well as "d", depending on the position in a word.