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+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 02-12-2019
We still have sayings about where to apply. Still used for children.
e.g. "heilä, hailä sägä, drü tag rägä, drü tag schnee, dänn tuetz au nümmä weh."
engl: healing healing speaking, three days of rain, three days of snow, then it won't hurt any more.
RE: 116v - Searcher - 02-12-2019
Lea Olsan, in his paper You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., mentioned such a charm:
(In nomine patris LAZARUS) Et filij VENI FORAS) (et speritus scantus CHRISTUS TE UOCAT) + CHRISTUS + STONAT+) (IESUS PREDICAT +) CHRISTUS REGNAT) + EREX + AREX + RYMEX + CHRISTI ELEYZON + EEEEEEEEE +.
The author supposes "the nonsense string “EREX + AREX + RYMEX +” is probably generated on the sounds of the morpheme rex (king), which derives semantically from the last formula in the preceding unit (“Christus regnat”)."
In principle, as I understand, magic words can be built on some meaningful base, but it is not obligatory. Looking at the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. string six (fix) + marix + morix + vix + a**a (alma?) ma+ria, I think about Latin words: fis (you are born, you come into being) or sis (if you would be), maris (1. (water) of the sea; 2. of the man (or boy), moris (of the habit (likeness)), vis (power), alma Maria (nursing Maria (Mother)), where the end -is is changed to the "magically" sounding "-ix". In another case, they can be any words that begin with the syllables si-/fi-, ma-, mo-, or vi-. Anyway, we can conclude that "magic words" of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. can't be reckoned among the most popular "orations" in charms. If the variations of "-REX"-words can be related to the word "REX" (King (masculine)), maybe, the magic words with the end "-IX" or "-RIX" are rather reflect feminine character of the words power of the words, as this ending means feminine gender. I think it may imply the main sense: MATRIX (the mother, womb).
I noted that iterative whether nonsense or meaningful words of charms are often followed by any of sacred (saint) names:
+ EREX + AREX + RYMEX + CHRISTI ELEYZON ( B. L. Sloane 3160, fol. 129v)
+ AGIOS + AGIOS + AGIOS + PATER (B. L. Sloane 2457, fol. 19v)
max max pax pater noster (B. L. Sloane 122, fol. 48)
arex, artifex, filia (B. L. Harley 273, fol. 213v)
As we see, the same is observed in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (VMs):
six (fix) + marix + morix + vix + a**a (alma?) ma+ria
To the note, as the Latin word portas may be not only the noun "gates", it is also a verb, which is translated as: "you carry", in the state "portas + N" it can mean "you carry + NAME". For example, the phrase "tu portas filium tuum" means "you carry your son (child)". In any case, it seems to be somehow echoed with "Et filij VENI FORAS" in the charm of the B. L. Sloane 3160, fol. 129v, mentioned at the beginning of the post.
P. S. I must say that I have many different versions of interpretation of the part "te tar (tra) tere portas", but I likely never mentioned about the followed one, so I share it.
Possibly: "te tra[ns] ter[ra]e portas", i. e., "te trans terrae portas" (... you through the gates of the Earth...). Sometimes the word "terrae" was written in the simplified form, without "a" of "ae", and without doubled "r".
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"Secundo et melius terræ portas vocat ultimas terræ partes, quibus ex terra im mare exitur, et e mari in terram intratur, q. d. Dispergam vos usque ad fines terræ. Ita Maldonatus, D. Thomas, Lyranus. Autem ut Sanchez, portæ terræ sunt ortus et occasus, per quæ dies et nox quasi per portas positas in finibus terræ, in eam ingrediuntur. Alii sic explicant, q. d. Depauperabo eos, ita ut ad portas et ostia cogantur mendicare."
RE: 116v - Anton - 02-12-2019
It looks like the -x ending was especially popular in magic spells.
Recall the "crex fex pex" from Alexey N. Tolstoy's Buratino.
This is absent from Pinocchio, so Tolstoy borrowed it from elsewhere. Sounds pretty like "rax pax fax" above.
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 07-12-2019
Again to the word "me o," and to the question "zant."
By region and places.
Now it's official.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 02-01-2020
I keep forgetting to post this. I come across it frequently in medieval manuscripts, numerous abbreviations for the words presbyter, presbyteren (the presbyter), presbiter, presbitere, etc., in Latin and Germanic languages.
If whoever wrote the text on 116v left out the apostrophes, then perhaps this is an abbreviation. It was extremely common for the "pres" part to be abbreviated down to a simple p with a stroke above it or through the descender (a macron). If the VMS word were written p'b'ren, this could be one interpretation:
This is a 19th-century transcript of a 9th-century manuscript that illustrates how the word presbiter was associated with crosses at one point in time:
RE: 116v - Koen G - 02-01-2020
But if "res" and "yte" can be dropped without indication of where and whether anything is dropped, then it could be so much. Is such an abbreviation really viable without context?
I mean, if you're writing a manuscript where you have to write a form of "presbyter" twenty times, then it's natural to abbreviate it, especially since it will generally be used in sentences where the full word is suggested by the context.
Now perhaps the preceding word is context enough, if for example it is to be read as "valsen". In Middle Dutch and German, "vals(ch)" means false, fake, mean, treacherous...
In that case, it would mean something like "the false presbyter". This word combination alone might be enough in the given context for the reader to understand what it means.
Going with "valsen presbyteren", I wonder which cases this could be and what this implies for the rest of the sentence.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 02-01-2020
false prophet
I don't know how old that saying is, but it would be interesting to see if they used it in the middle ages. In those days almost anyone from a different religion would be considered a heretic. Maybe the idea of false prophet and heretic were not too far apart.
From recent religious commentary:
Brill 2010 Sibyllinische Orakel 1-2
There's also the possibility of walschen/welschen (which).
RE: 116v - Koen G - 02-01-2020
In the reading walschen, my first idea would be to relate the word to the Germanic "wals, walsch...", etymologically related to Walloon (Waals) and Welsh. In the Middle Ages it meant any French speaker or by extension any foreigner (who speaks a different language).
In that case it would mean the foreign or French speaking presbyter (whatever presbyter meant in the early 15th century).
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 02-01-2020
Presbyter was originally "elder" and in that 9th-century document may have meant it in a more general sense than later when "Presbyterian" took on a more specific meaning. I don't know exactly when that happened, however.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 02-01-2020
I just took a look, t appears that the more specific word Presbyterian is from the 17th century.
In Harley MS 560 (12th century), the term "presbiter cardinalis" is used many times for different people.
The only reason this even occurred to me (to read prbren as presbyteren) is that I see the abbreviation for presbiter/presbiteren frequently in manuscripts. Not as often as the abbreviation for sanctus (which is extremely common), but nevertheless, quite often. It's abbreviated in numerous ways.