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+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - Anton - 24-10-2019
Very interesting, thanks!
That's what it means to have subject matter experts on the forum!
Well this turns the scales back towards the "spell" format.
RE: 116v - arca_libraria - 24-10-2019
(24-10-2019, 12:33 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Impressive!
By the way, is this "tere"?
It is, it is the imperative of the verb terere, which means "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.". The whole of that recipe is:
Ad cancrum. Accipe sal et piper et musces et atramentum: equis ponderibus et tere, et simul cum acceto distempera, et liga cum corio in uulnus, usque ad diem tertium. Celedoniam tere et distempera cum urina nigri bouis et super uulnus pone.
For an ulcer. Take salt and pepper and musk and black dye: an equal weight and grind, and at the same time mix with vinegar, and bind with animal skin over the wound for three days. Grind greater celandine and mix with the urine of a black cow and put over the wound.
Notes: 1) I have cleaned up the spelling and added modern punctuation. 2) musces and atramentum would both need fairly lengthy footnotes in a real publication - I know that there are several other options for both words and that musces looks like nusces.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 24-10-2019
Haha, I had just done a quick transliteration for those who might not be familiar with the Latin script, and saw that you had posted before me, but I might as well post it anyway for anyone who is interested. I've expanded the abbreviations, but I didn't change the spelling as it might be indicative of a specific dialect:
Ad mulierem que partu laborat.
Maria genuit Christum. Elisabeth peperit iohanem baptista.
Cilma peperit remigium. Sic et hec mulier non pariat sine dolore. In nomine patris. et filii. et spiritus sancti.
Lazare veni foras Christus te vocat. Anna peperit mariam.
Maria autem peperit christum dominum. Pater noster iii. Item adnomitum restringendum. Senim feniculi tricum cum aqua dabis bibere. Ad cancrum. Accipe sal. et piper. et nusces. et atramentum. Equis ponderibus et tere et simulcum acceto distempera. et liga encorio invulnus usque ad diem tevim. Celedoniam tere. et distempera. em urina nigri bovis. et super vulnus pone. Item alia. Pro cunctis malannis. Accipe plumbum et arde usque ad pulveret et mel. et oleum equlite' simul inisce. et liga encorio caprolino in loco ubi malum est.
When I read it, I thought that "nusces" might mean "nuts" (several kinds of nuts were common in medicinal formulae, and they sometimes spelled it that way), but they also used musk or muscilage, so I can see how there might be a number of interpretations.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 24-10-2019
Looking through my files, here is another example of crosses above the words (France c. 1060):
Also... crosses used as phrase markers:
Crosses between words (CLM 849). I have a few examples of this, so it is probably more common:
Crosses as paragraph markers (Cotton Tib A III):
RE: 116v - arca_libraria - 24-10-2019
(24-10-2019, 01:48 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.When I read it, I thought that "nusces" might mean "nuts" (several kinds of nuts were common in medicinal formulae, and they sometimes spelled it that way), but they also used musk or muscilage, so I can see how there might be a number of interpretations.
Nusces/nuts is what I had originally (and I still like it as a reading because it’s what’s actually on the page), but I’ve been over this text with a very senior academic who has done a lot of work on similar texts and she said that musces is much more common in this sort of recipe and that nusces doesn’t work for the time this was written as it’s a much later variant. This text is still a work in progress so I’m sure I’ll have to revisit the translation again, but that particular word is flagged in my notes as “revisit this”.
Anyway, thank you very much for transcribing it - I should have shared my edition and translation with the picture, but I found out tonight that someone I considered a friend has stolen some of my research and published it as their own so I’m feeling disproportionately over-protective tonight.
RE: 116v - arca_libraria - 24-10-2019
The charter (the second one down in your post) is using the crosses to indicate each person who witnessed the grant of land being made. The part of the charter with all of the crosses is known as the witness list/subscription list and each person there is saying “I Leofric a duke [witnessed this]”. Gifts of land were recorded publicly in the early middle ages and the witnesses could theoretically be called upon to help if the details of the grant were ever disputed.
You can see another security feature, known as a chirograph, at the bottom of the image. Some charters were copied twice onto a single sheet of parchment, one copy for the giver, one copy for the receiver. The scribe would write a big word, usually a variant of CHIROGRADUM in between the two copies and then cut the page in half - this was to stop someone making another copy of the charter and changing the terms - if there was any dispute then the two halves would have to be produced and checked to see if they matched up.
In some charters all of the crosses are very different, which suggests that although a single scribe wrote all of the text including the names of the witnesses, each witness made their own cross. In a lot of early medieval charters though all of the crosses are probably by the same scribe and the crosses are a stylistic convention and are part of the way the charter-scribe recorded who was present.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 24-10-2019
(24-10-2019, 02:30 AM)arca_libraria Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Anyway, thank you very much for transcribing it - I should have shared my edition and translation with the picture, but I found out tonight that someone I considered a friend has stolen some of my research and published it as their own so I’m feeling disproportionately over-protective tonight.
I am very sorry to hear that.
Unfortunately, I have seen this happen rather often. I have even witnessed professors stealing the work of students, something that absolutely shocked me the first time I saw it and that I was unwilling to believe (and then I witnessed it again at another university and realized yes, it does happen).
It occurs the other way around also. There's some pretty strong evidence that a student stole and patented the work of one of his professors and subsequently collected millions in royalties after the professor's death.
And colleagues do it to colleagues.
A hot bath and chocolate sometimes can ease the disappointment.
(24-10-2019, 02:48 AM)arca_libraria Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The charter (the second one down in your post) is using the crosses to indicate each person who witnessed the grant of land being made. The part of the charter with all of the crosses is known as the witness list/subscription list and each person there is saying “I Leofric a duke [witnessed this]”. Gifts of land were recorded publicly in the early middle ages and the witnesses could theoretically be called upon to help if the details of the grant were ever disputed.
...
This is very helpful information!
RE: 116v - Davidsch - 05-11-2019
116v. Possible it contains a charm to clean the liver: vor leber einen purifier.
And for those that follow links (although I've read that is only 3% of you) : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Throwing in another possibility if you persist it says: pox.... This could be an abbreviation of po_ntife_x.
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 29-11-2019
I don't think it makes any sense to add big comments now.
The inserted picture explains a lot.
But what will surely never happen is that I will see a Gaismilch.
We in Zurich write: so nimtzäs mich au. ( nimtz äs )
Bern: so nimtzas miig o.
South Bavaria: so nimtzas mich o.
He wrote it right, only separated it wrong. After the nim there is a break for swallowing. e.g. (Carwash)
RE: 116v - Anton - 29-11-2019
Ha! Do you mean "au" = "auch"? Capital!
Somehow I never thought in that direction. One needs to know those dialects to ever think that way.