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+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 10-10-2019
Ladin is derived from Latin like French or Italian and what I say now is a friendly advice, not a rebuke: Start reading up things before you start talking about them
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 10-10-2019
You didn't understand my question. I may have put it wrong or the translator may have put it wrong.
Example: German is not the same as German. We have the Germanic spoken in the north, and the Alemanic spoken in the south.
Now we still have the dialects in different forms.
My question is, is there such a thing in Latin as well?
I know Ladin is a mixed language.
RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 11-10-2019
I suppose I have undestood your question now and I can say there are 'dialects' in this sense in post-Clasical Latin. If you discount writers who have not mastered the basics of grammar, you see differences, especially in vocabulary, but in grammar as well. Basically, writers follow the structure of their own language, you can decide in many cases if e.g. a French or German speaker has written a Latin text, that is especially true for late Medieval or early Modern texts. It is like contemporary IT manuals written in English, even if it is correct English, you can usually decide if a native speaker, or someone German or French has written the text
RE: 116v - Anton - 22-10-2019
I've been not very active in the forum of lately, but David's note in another thread made me recall what I wanted to drop down in here for a record. He says (about f116v) that the crosses are there in order for one to know when to cross himself when casting the spell.
That's the well-known puspose of crosses in written spells in general, and of course I've naturally been of the same opinion in respect of f116v.
However, what I recently saw in Egerton MS 747 (which Marco brought into light in another thread) made me re-assess the potential purpose of these particular crosses in f116v.
In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of MS747, the first two lines contain what looks like some sort of mnemonic dedicated to the calendar discussed. I don't understand it in depth, but I'm sure that if one reads the text attentively, s/he will recognize what's the application of the mnemonic. Now, note how syllables in the mnemonic are separated by verticals. I guess that has some special purpose, making the verse a mnemonic.
So it occurred to me that crosses in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. may serve the same purpose. In which case the "anchiton" lines cease to be a spell and appear to be a mnemonic. Now, crosses as separators do not divide this text in syllables, but on the other hand this explains away the inserted cross in the middle of "maria". Otherwise I'm at a loss why a cross to cross yourself would be inserted in the middle of a word.
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 23-10-2019
@ Helmut Winkler
We're getting closer, but it's still not exactly what I mean.
Assuming that pure Latin was a spoken language in the 400th century, there must also be Latin dialects. Same as in Italy, France, Germany.
How far has this spoken Latin changed in dialect since 400 to 1400, and how much of another language must be present before one can speak of another language? If it can be assumed that at that time the writing was exactly the same as the speaking, then diversity becomes the real problem.
RE: 116v - davidjackson - 23-10-2019
Quote:Now, crosses as separators do not divide this text in syllables, but on the other hand this explains away the inserted cross in the middle of "maria". Otherwise I'm at a loss why a cross to cross yourself would be inserted in the middle of a word.Some would argue that if you are going to cross yourself in the middle of a word, then Maria is the perfect word.
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 23-10-2019
I can still imagine it coming from Aramaic or Hebrew.
ma = Mother and ria = God / Mother of God
But that's just a guess.
The names usually have a meaning.
Peter / Petrus / the rock
Urs / Ursus / The Bear
Kurt / ??? / The Wolf
RE: 116v - davidjackson - 23-10-2019
Maria would be the virgin Mary, especially if surrounded by crosses
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 23-10-2019
" Bete 3 Ave ma ria "
RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 23-10-2019
(23-10-2019, 01:32 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@ Helmut Winkler
We're getting closer, but it's still not exactly what I mean.
Assuming that pure Latin was a spoken language in the 400th century, there must also be Latin dialects. Same as in Italy, France, Germany.
How far has this spoken Latin changed in dialect since 400 to 1400, and how much of another language must be present before one can speak of another language? If it can be assumed that at that time the writing was exactly the same as the speaking, then diversity becomes the real problem.
It is a very complicated subject, but let me say this: In classical antiquiry, there was written Latin and there was spoken Latin, and there never was 'pure Latin', and there were lots of differences in e.g. Cicero's time. Both these 'dialects' developed, written Latin developed into a kind of lingua franca, used by scholars in the widest sensspoken L. into the Romance dialects. At the same time a spoken L. developed, used in certain in the widest sense clerical circles, e.g. monks, students and so on. I am ashamed of simplifying things so muchm but that is more or less the development