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+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 08-10-2019
(08-10-2019, 02:08 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also think it's possible that it's "p" rather than "v" with the stem faded out. But then it might also be "palsen".It might, but it is not, palden is MHD for GER bald/ENG soon and I don't know a 'palsen', and the next word sems to be an abbreviation for 'probiren', ENG to try out. And the stem is not faded out, there is a good example for a similar p in one of the Milanese ciphers Nick Pelling posted on his blog.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 08-10-2019
It looks to me like a section of vellum under the last line, toward the left, has been "washed". Not a big section, but there seem to be traces of text/drawing that are not bleedthrough from the other side, so that might account for the faded ascenders on the letters that look like "p".
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 09-10-2019
I put the link of the book above the page.
Origin 1420-1430, see book description.
Is this now a kind of folk Latin ?
RE: 116v - MarcoP - 09-10-2019
(09-10-2019, 10:44 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I put the link of the book above the page.
Origin 1420-1430, see book description.
Is this now a kind of folk Latin ?
From what JKP and Helmut wrote above, I think the second paragraph reads:
Secundo, peccavi quod nomen dei valide inreverenter accepi in os meum, quod maladixi creatura dei.
Second, I sinned because I spoke the name of God very irreverently, because I cursed the creatures of God.
I think the spelling "maladixi" (for "maledixi") is not strictly correct. If it is "vallde" it is another anomaly, while "valide" is correct. I could not find the text online, so I guess it was created by the author of the manuscript. The manuscript is from Brixen and it dates to the XV Century. A late provincial work can have some spelling variation, but the syntax seems correct to me. "Folk Latin" seems too strong, I would say it is regular late-medieval Latin.
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 09-10-2019
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
On page 113v he starts with Latin, and changes to German in chapter 2.
The kind of Latin looks different for me than the one on the double page. Am I mistaken ?
RE: 116v - nablator - 09-10-2019
(09-10-2019, 12:05 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
On page 113v he starts with Latin, and changes to German in chapter 2.
The kind of Latin looks different for me than the one on the double page. Am I mistaken ?
113v starts with a very common 15th century style of curly macrons that cling to letters and look very much like Voynichese b, n, u, r, s.
104v doesn't have any. That's the main difference as far as I can see.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 09-10-2019
(09-10-2019, 12:05 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
On page 113v he starts with Latin, and changes to German in chapter 2.
The kind of Latin looks different for me than the one on the double page. Am I mistaken ?
There are lots of different scribes. I grabbed three of them (there are probably more, but I don't have time to look through the whole manuscript):
RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 09-10-2019
@ Aga
MarcoP and Nablator are quite correct in their comments, to say it bluntly, there is no Folk latin, there is Medieval Latin, different from Classical and 'Humanist' Latin. I think you should start by reading the relevant wikipedia articles for a start.
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 09-10-2019
If there is no folk Latin, what would you call Ladin?
It is important for me to find out (hints) the way of writing that was common at that time by means of the region where the VM tells me. There are also no Gramatik books in this area. This only exists in classical Latin.
How am I supposed to start with the VM text if I have no basis.
If I am wrong in dialect the whole work is for nothing.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 09-10-2019
I've been trying to do that too, Aga. It's challenging because people moved around and they took their dialects and writing styles with them.