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+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 04-10-2019
Here nice to see in the last line ( portas )
Other characteristics can also be seen.
RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 04-10-2019
(04-10-2019, 04:57 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Meanwhile a lot has accumulated over the years, but mostly I have no idea where I got it from. Most of the time the marginal notes are more interesting than the book itself.
Here nice to see in the last line ( portas )
Other characteristics can also be seen.
Well, it rather looks like portab[is], there is an undisputable round s in gemellas and several b's
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 04-10-2019
Okay, here is my go at it, with abbreviations expanded.
I have kept the scribe's spelling variations (including the unusual "w" in ungwibus), but I question "cira" which refers to wax ("cura" makes more sense in this context but maybe "cira" has other meanings in medieval Latin that I don't know about):
brachia no[n] mi[n]as cum lustra[t] luna gemellas
vngwib[us] [et] ma[n]ib[us] cu[m] f[e]r[ro] cira (cira seems odd, could he have meant "cura?") neget[ur])
nu[m]q[uid] portab[is] ap[ro]missio[r]e p[er]itu[m]
brachia non minas cum lustrat luna gemellas
ungwibus [usually unguibus] et manibus cum ferro cira/cura? negetur
numquid portabis apromissiore peritum
I was not sure if he meant "numquid" or "numquam" when I first read it, it is written more like "numquam" abbreviation, but some scribes wrote both abbreviations almost the same.
Note that this writer uses the end-tail to stand for a variety of letters, including "m" and "r". Some scribes use the tail to point at the exact spot the letter is missing, but that's less common than what this scribe does, which is simply to swing the tail over, like a macron, without pointing at any particular spot (the "pointer" doesn't line up with the missing letter).
Also, the letter than looks like a leaned-back "b" in "ungwibus" I have noticed is almost always u/v in Latin texts. It's actually a "v" shape with a very long leading serif.
Sounds like something from an astrology text, with the information about the moon and "twins" (Gemini).
RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 04-10-2019
It is luscina luna/the blacked out moon
I suppose apromissiore is a typo instead of a promissione
and I read
cum foro cir[c]a
Seems to me these are hexameters, it is a pity we don't have the source, to me it seeems more like some kind of poetry, but I can't identify it
RE: 116v - ReneZ - 04-10-2019
It seems to exist in slightly different versions.
Here is one with 'portabis':
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It can also be found as the 'Flos Medicinae Scholae Salerni', where instead of 'portabis' it says 'praestabis'.
See for example here:
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RE: 116v - arca_libraria - 04-10-2019
Ok, I have used underlines for where I have expanded an abbreviation and [square brackets] for where I have emended. I think it's:
Brachia non minas cum luscina[?] luna gemellas
Ung[ui]bus et manibus cum ferro cura negetur
Numquam portabis apremissione peritum
I agree that it's supposed to be verse, but it's really bad Latin; half of it doesn't agree and the meter is off so I suspect this is quite a corrupt version of the text.
EDIT: Found a version of it: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Ll: 13–15
Brachia non minuas cum lustrat luna gemello
Unguibus aut manibus ferrum vel cura negetur
Numquam portabis premisso in ore potitam.
RE: 116v - arca_libraria - 04-10-2019
(04-10-2019, 07:47 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[ReneZ finding the sources first]
Sorry Rene, I missed your post when I was writing mine!
RE: 116v - arca_libraria - 04-10-2019
It seems to have been quite a popular poem, I haven't found the manusccript that it's from yet, but my searches turned up You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which has a sagittarius that is one of the most similar "matches" to the VMS sagittarius that I've seen in a long time, but is probably old news to this forum*.
The poem is on ff. 73v–74r (pp. 152–153 in the search thing at the top), the sagittarius is on f. 45v (p. 96 in the search thing at the top).
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 04-10-2019
Thanks, René. I didn't look to see if there were any source texts, I just dove into the deep end to see if I could expand it properly. I'll take a look at the source texts this evening.
Arca, I agree that it's bad Latin, but I see so many texts in bad Latin, I tend not to even notice it any more! I've been perusing mostly letters and school texts rather than the really good professional texts, so bad Latin seems to be the norm.
I suppose it makes sense... by the 15th century, Latin was dying out as a means of verbal communication so people probably put less effort into learning it well. It hadn't been the primary language for 1,000 years, so it's surprising it lasted as long as it did. The biblical story of the Tower of Babel always reminds me of the breakup of the Roman Empire and rise of vernacular languages.
RE: 116v - MarcoP - 05-10-2019
(04-10-2019, 09:05 PM)arca_libraria Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It seems to have been quite a popular poem, I haven't found the manusccript that it's from yet, but my searches turned up You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which has a sagittarius that is one of the most similar "matches" to the VMS sagittarius that I've seen in a long time, but is probably old news to this forum*.
The poem is on ff. 73v–74r (pp. 152–153 in the search thing at the top), the sagittarius is on f. 45v (p. 96 in the search thing at the top).
Thank you!
The constellation diagrams that appear You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) are also interesting!