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+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - -JKP- - 15-08-2019
I don't think it says "multos". There is no "u" in front of the "l". It is a long-serif "i" written the same way as the other "i"' characters on the folio.
What is in front of it is harder to discern, because the minims could be m or n (and there might be a leading "i").
I don't think that's a "v" in cere. I think it's a long-serif r with a disconnected hook, which was a moderately common form and which is repeated elsewhere on the folio. That's not how they wrote "u/v" in the 15th century.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 15-08-2019
You shouldn't leave out the + signs. For example cere + m +
(I think it's a badly drawn "loop-m" but it might also be an oddly drawn "n")
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 15-08-2019
(15-08-2019, 02:57 PM)Gavin Güldenpfennig Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On page 116v I would read:
...
mi six marix movix vix adia matria orrorr hui valsen ubrey / ´o nim geis mich` !
...
six + marix + morix + vix + ahia + ma+ria +
aror sheey valsen ubren so nim gas mich [drawing of something roughly round below the baseline with 5 (yes 5) dots leading to it from above]
I don't think that says matria, I think it's a cross like the other crosses that's been inserted within maria (maria was a very common name in incantations, as were the names of angels). The scribe uses old-style t with a rounded stem and not the straight style of "t", so it's not a "t" it's more likely another cross. Look at "portas" and "te" (it's rounded "t" in both of them).
That is not a "y" at the end of "ubren". They didn't write "y" like that (the loop is too pointed and squeezed). It's a very normal final-n (with a tail)—very common shape.
I'm wondering why you doubled the "r" in the Voynichese token. Any particular reason? That's not what the tail usually means.
I'm also wondering why you ignored the long-ess in "so". "so" is a very common word in German manuscripts (along with "also"). Well, I guess you didn't ignore it, but you disconnected the crossbar from the stem. I know the stem is light, but they are connected. It's the same as the ess in "gas" it's just a bit smaller.
I'm not sure why you write "geis" rather than "gas". The scribe does not write "e" or "i" that way. The e is always rounder and wider and the i usually has a long leading serif (not always but most of the time and it is not typically ligatured to other letters—look at anchiton, mar+ria, and six, which all have a good deal of space around the "i").
RE: 116v - Gavin Güldenpfennig - 17-08-2019
(15-08-2019, 04:39 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's not poxleder.
It is very clearly a Gothic "b" where you have a "d". No one wrote "d" like that and many wrote "b" like that.
I cannot tell if the last letter is "r" or "n" because it's faded or rubbed. It's not clear.
poxleben or poxleber (and there's some dispute about the x because the ink blobbed and filled in, but I think it looks like x).
You are mixing up Gothic "d" and "b" (getting them backwards) because in the oladabas word you read the "d" (which is a normal "d") as "b", but no one wrote b like that.
Both the "d" and "b" are written in a typical way for the time so I'm not sure why you are reversing them.
I cannot explain, why I´m thinking that the writer has changed b- and d- shapes into each other. But their some "b" and "d" in the past, that are look like the other one.
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So we cannot be entirely sure in my opinion, which one is which.
But "poxleber" and "olad(a/i)bas" aren´t words with a clear translation in any language, so I would prefer to read "poxleder" and "olabidas", which gives us a word which means "vellum" in German "Bocksleder / Kalbsleder". This is directly connected to the VMS material. And if you read "poxleder" you must also read "oladibas" which gives us the name of a small river, which is quite important from the Basque mythology. ("Oladibae")
Reading the VMS doesn´t mean reading the letters, at all...
Imagine, that you´re in hypnosis, trance or near to death. Would you write everything correct? Could you decide which letter is which one? I think, I couldn´t do this. It´s only an example, it could be something other behind that letter shapes.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 17-08-2019
(17-08-2019, 01:00 PM)Gavin Güldenpfennig Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Imagine, that you´re in hypnosis, trance or near to death. Would you write everything correct? Could you decide which letter is which one? I think, I couldn´t do this. It´s only an example, it could be something other behind that letter shapes.
But if you choose which letters you want to change and which ones you leave as they are, then someone else might choose DIFFERENT letters to change to make different words that might make as much sense to them as your interpretation makes to you.
It's an unprovable idea when you start saying, well I want all the d letters to be b (and vice versa) so I can make this word.
RE: 116v - Gavin Güldenpfennig - 17-08-2019
(15-08-2019, 04:49 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't think it says "multos". There is no "u" in front of the "l". It is a long-serif "i" written the same way as the other "i"' characters on the folio.
What is in front of it is harder to discern, because the minims could be m or n (and there might be a leading "i").
I don't think that's a "v" in cere. I think it's a long-serif r with a disconnected hook, which was a moderately common form and which is repeated elsewhere on the folio. That's not how they wrote "u/v" in the 15th century.
JKP, you should look more carefully at the words. There are no dots of "i" or anything in "multos". But there is an "m" (the first hook is vanishing, but we can still see it) and a following "u" in front of the "l".
In "ceve" there is no "r". It´s a "v" as in "vix". Look at the "r" in "ubren". May you´re right with that word, but that would´t change the translation.
If we should read "adia" or "ahia" "ma(t)ria", I can not say for sure.
I´ve read "adia" as "ad ea" (Latin: zu dieser), but the verb gives us a "to" ("zu") too.
You could read "ahia" (Gothic: echt, zu ehrend -> English: "true / sth. that must be honored")
Furthermore you could read "maria" as "Maria" or as Basque´s main goddess "Mari"!
You could even read matria, which can be translated into "mother" or "source of a river".
But none of the translation would change the central message of the text. It´s only a matter of naming something in my opinion.
The most difficult word seems to be "inchiton/"anchiton". It´s not a clear "a" nor a clear "i". I think it could be an open pronounced "a", like you would pronounce the prefix "in-" in French. It´s not as much impossible at it seems, because Latin and French are related to each other and maybe the one who wrote this note wasn´t able to decide in his mood / situation, whether it´s a (Vulgar) Latin or French word.
"orrorr" I read because the Voynich- "r" in my Voynich alphabet turns out as "rr"
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 17-08-2019
Gavin, you should look more carefully at the other shapes on the same folio in the same handwriting.
Not all of the "i" letters are not dotted and it was extremely common for dots to be left out, sometimes part of the time, sometimes frequently, depending on the scribe.
I really do not believe this is a "u" in front of "l". It is written like the other "i" letters and not like the other "u" letters. You are overlooking other words (common ones) that this might be. "Multos" is not the only word that ends in -ltos. Did you even check the other words?
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 30-09-2019
I can't see why Dr. Damschen would read the "x" letters at the end of six marix morix vix as "s" (post #298).
No one wrote "s" like that and many wrote "x" like that (bringing the stroke around and back without lifting the pen). I don't even understand how that could be interpreted as "s". Even if you flip it around it doesn't look like medieval "s".
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 30-09-2019
Ich denke hier dasselbe wie Dr. Damschen.
Dies ist wahrscheinlich die Debatte. Bezogen auf den alemanischen Text auf der Seite. (nicht deutsch).
x, gesprochen als "igs", bei dem das "g" verschluckt wird. Der Ton ist also = X. Schwer zu verstehen.
Beispiel: bin ii gsii. Deutsch: "bin ich gewesen"
I think the same here as Dr Damschen.
This is probably the debate. Related to the Alemanic text on the page. (not German).
x, spoken as "igs" where the "g" is swallowed. So the tone is = X. Hard to understand.
Example: bin ii gsii. German: "bin ich gewesen" (I have been)
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 30-09-2019
(21-04-2016, 10:50 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(21-04-2016, 08:58 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am not saying that it is more likely to read one or the other, by the way. For me, the definitive reading should follow from either a comparison with other text in the same script (made by someone with some qualifications in this area), or by a convincing reading of the majority of the text.
I have been hoping to find some handwritten text that is similar to this. There are hundreds (thousands?) of German MSs online, but I never found a very close match. One that seems to come rather close is this one:
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(One should look at several pages).
Characters that most usually are different from the text on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are the 'd' and the 'p'. It is really quite rare to find any text that has these similarities.
Thank you, Rene!
Of course, this deserves a serious study, and I agree that a true paleographer would save us a lot of trouble!
Here is a comparison based on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Top row (in black) "amen"
- Bottom row (in red) "ave maria"
If it's "amen" then there is a minim missing in the "m". And of course, there needs to be an explanation for the loop that makes it an "h" rather than "n". But I'm guessing you were mainly referring to the style of the text rather than the specific letters?
If so, I have some examples that are very close to the style of the letters on 116v, even the strange beginning letter of "anchiton". I can't post them during the week, but if possible, I will try to upload them this weekend.