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+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - Anton - 12-01-2019
I agree that some characters are similar - like "a" and particularly "r", others are quite different though, like e.g. "h".
The next page features curious drawings together with some marginalia as well.
The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. word contains too many strokes before "er", for it to be "noster".
RE: 116v - ReneZ - 09-05-2019
Fortunately, a recent publication finally solves the mystery of the text on f116v.
(Nobody will ever guess which publication I mean
)Anyway:
Quote:With informed judgement, the words may read: mériton o’pasaban + mapeós (thanks is given to God for
the mappings: French, Galician, Latin, Spanish). The Greek sign of the holy cross ‘+’ is
commonly used as a Latin text symbol to represent faith in God, Christ, Christianity. The
circumflex accent ‘^’ beneath the final letter ‘o’ translates into a modern accented ‘ó’ making
the word ‘mapeós’ a preterite indicative verb form: i.e. associated with a past event.
Disclaimer:
Any resemblance with the clearly forbidden style form of sarcasm is purely coincidental
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 09-05-2019
Quote:With informed judgement, the words may read: mériton o’pasaban + mapeós (thanks is given to God for
the mappings: French, Galician, Latin, Spanish). The Greek sign of the holy cross ‘+’ is
commonly used as a Latin text symbol to represent faith in God, Christ, Christianity. The
circumflex accent ‘^’ beneath the final letter ‘o’ translates into a modern accented ‘ó’ making
the word ‘mapeós’ a preterite indicative verb form: i.e. associated with a past event.
Ouch. Well now we know GC doesn't know how to read medieval text.
Even beginners don't usually mistake "h" for "r" and "l" for "p". He seems to think the "l" is a Voynichese p in both this word and the next one, but it doesn't look anything like Voynich p and it DOES look like a normal medieval Gothic "l". He also doesn't recognize medieval "t" (the curved style). He thinks it's "e".
RE: 116v - Anton - 26-05-2019
In the light of the renewed discussion of the final-8, I looked at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and it occured to me that the "8" in "multos" is quite different from "8" in "oladabas" and "portas". The "8" in "multos" is just the very shape which is so common as final "s" in the manuscripts of the time. I have no doubts that it stands for "s".
The "8" in two other places (and in "valden" as well, but that's perhaps yet another story) is different. Not only it is different in shape, it is clearly different in the way it is put down on parchment. It is just composed of different strokes. Why? Is it not an "s", after all?
RE: 116v - Anton - 27-05-2019
Now, I have a very interesting question which, I think, has never been discussed.
If a person writes "multo8" (this is not German, let's say it's Latin), would he, two lines below that, write the (German) "gas" with the long "s" (instead of 8)?
If he would not, that means one of the following:
1) The last line is put down by another person - not improbable, giving some differences in writing, but that would mean that "anchiton oladabas" already existed when someone proficient in Voynichese came up to add something about aror sheey and all that - and this is an interesting scenario indeed
2) The scribe is one and the same, but he blindly copied the "spell" from another source - this is my old idea, but this would mean that the learned guy fluent in German did not understand what he copied - i.e. did not understand Latin! Is that something that could happen in reality?
3) In the old debate, it's not "gas mich", but "gasmich", after all
RE: 116v - Koen G - 27-05-2019
I see what you mean, Anton. But to make matters worse, I think the one in "portas" looks quite messy and it's hard to trace its strokes
RE: 116v - Anton - 27-05-2019
Yes, it's messy, but it's clearly written not in the same way as in multos. I wonder how I did not pay attention to that before. It was JKP explanations about these final "s" shapes in the other thread that were so enlightening. One good example of how difficult it is to move on without special knowledge!
RE: 116v - Anton - 27-05-2019
Quote:You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Hmm, quite surprisingly, he could.
The Cod. Sang. 931 referenced above, provides a ready example.
Even within the same language, and even for the same word: p. 287 "das" with "normal" S, p.289 "das" with long S. Probably, these two are not the same "das", but anyway.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 27-05-2019
It was quite common for some scribes to use both Greek-sigma and B-shape for final-ess in the same manuscript. Scribes who did this usually did not use long-ess at the end.
It was also not uncommon for some scribes to use both long-ess and snake-ess (the modern ess) in the same manuscript and sometimes even on the same line. Scribes who did this SOMETIMES used Greek-sigma, but didn't use B-shape very often.
(These are not the technical terms, but they are ones I prefer because anyone can understand what they are right away.)
The generalizations above are somewhat regional... (it's taken me years to figure all this out...)...
The snake-ess is more common in Spain and Italy, the B-shaped ess in central and northern Europe. Everyone seems to have used Greek-sigma (it shows up all over).
The snake-ess is the more traditional shape. Central and Northern Europe made a segué into Gothic text while Italy retained some of the traditional forms (which were more attractive and more readable). The humanist movement brought back an appreciation of the more readable Caroline texts (which the Italians were still using to some extent) and they started using them again in the very late 1400s and early 1500s and this evolved into modern script.
I have many many samples of all these which I will post when I post the statistics on the 8-shaped final-ess so they can be seen altogether.
RE: 116v - MarcoP - 27-05-2019
(27-05-2019, 12:29 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Hmm, quite surprisingly, he could.
The Cod. Sang. 931 referenced above, provides a ready example.
Even within the same language, and even for the same word: p. 287 "das" with "normal" S, p.289 "das" with long S. Probably, these two are not the same "das", but anyway.
Both versions appear in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (e.g. lines 9-10, but both versions have other occurrences).