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+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - -JKP- - 24-10-2018
(24-10-2018, 07:55 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I thought it meant armour? Which would be the use Alexander gave to it, he used it to protect the gates. I don't think the English meaning of covering (clothes) and covering (coating) would work in ancient Greek?
That's why it gave its name to molluscs and beetle exoskins (chitinous).
So anti-armour.... dunno. Amour piercing?
Could it be a proposition that is being misused? an chiton? An means "or", doesn't it?
It has been used to describe a tunic or toga. I've read quite a few references where they talk about men and women wearing the "chiton" (tunic) and "himation" (the cloth thrown across the shoulders).
Since those first letters aren't clear, the possibility exists that it's "en chiton" rather than "an chiton", especially if one considers how often in medieval texts, they substituted "a" for "e" (this substitution was especially frequent in Germany). Think about how "en" is pronounced in French and then consider how a Bavarian or Tirolian might spell it.
If one is skeptical about "en"... look at the shape of the first letter, a funny triangular hook... now look at the first "e" in "leber/leben" above it. Both are a bit angular and different from the other "e" letters so... either the writer sometimes wrote "e" strangely, OR it is meant to represent some other sound.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 24-10-2018
The reason I asked on the other thread if there were any famous gates that were rebuilt many times is because the rest of the line could potentially be read as
multos rececere portas = multos rezecere portas = many-times rebuilt door/gates
or maybe multos rejicere portas = many-times push back/fling open the door/gates or many-times carried back (depending on language)
portas is found in many languages, so it could mean door, gates, or the verb carry... if it's a mixture of Latin and some other Romance language then it complicates it even more... it could be interpreted in half a dozen ways.
It's hard to know how much to trust (or mistrust) the grammar... The grammar is off in the phrase "so nim gas/gaf mich", so the grammar may also be strange (or completely incorrect or absent) in line two.
.
It might not even be "multos". I frequently see "niltos" in Latin manuscripts and the way it's written, with the extra minim that is attached to the plus sign, it actually looks like "iniltos" which would only make sense if it were something abbreviated.
RE: 116v - Searcher - 28-10-2018
As we still can't be sure about the origin of the word "anchiton", I think, we can consider all possible variants for the next words. First of all, I must say that, of course, "ola dabas" may be the one word "oladabas", but I will consider it as two word divided by a short space.
"Ola" was supposed to be a variant of spelling for the word "oil" (olea, etc.) and transliterated greek word "ola" or "hola" (all), "ola" is also an alternative form for Latin "olla" (a jar). I mentioned that "ola" (also "olah") can be a transliteration for the word "burnt offering" in Hebrew. It means "that which goes up", "ascent". In Arabic it ("ola") similarly means "high".
The most usual interpretation for "daba*" is "dabas" or "dabat" - "gave" in Latin, but there are words in Hebrew and Arabic that can be translated with latin letters in that way.
Hebrew: "dabas", "dabash", "debash" - honey, dates-honey, syrup of grape.
Arabic: "dabas", "dabs" - honey, rendered honey; also - a stone, a quarry-stone, a small rock (but I can't find an information whether this meaning is modern or ancient, it would be interesting, indeed).
So, it is interesting whether "ola dabas" can be a correct word combination in Hebrew, meaning "honey offering" or not.
In general, I think that all these three words "anchiton ola dabas" must be related to each other directly, as they are not divided by a plus-sign, therefore I suppose that they are not different components.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 28-10-2018
(28-10-2018, 08:35 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Hebrew: "dabas", "dabash", "debash" - honey, dates-honey, syrup of grape.
Arabic: "dabas", "dabs" - honey, rendered honey; also - a stone, a quarry-stone, a small rock (but I can't find an information whether this meaning is modern or ancient, it would be interesting, indeed).
So, it is interesting whether "ola dabas" can be a correct word combination in Hebrew, meaning "honey offering" or not.
In general, I think that all these three words "anchiton ola dabas" must be related to each other directly, as they are not divided by a plus-sign, therefore I suppose that they are not different components.
Yes, dabas has meanings in many languages. At one point I had a LOOOOONG list of meanings for dabas (it's still there SOMEWHERE in my files). It can also mean a raw egg.
RE: 116v - bi3mw - 29-10-2018
At the end of the last line on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. there is a passage that could be read as "so nim gasmich". In the overall context, I wonder if "gasmich" / "gas mich "could be a variant of "Greding" / "Gredmich" or "gred mich". It is a so-called "Gebildbrot" that was given away during Lent.
Quote:Höfler, M., Ostergebäcke, Verl. des Vereines für Österreichische Volkskunde, 1906, ( engl. translation ):
...
Further, the so-called G r e d i n g of the medieval German monasteries, which was given away to the servants on a »Friday« during Lent under the priestly slogan: Crede mihi (mulier), (Faith me, woman !, Gospel John, IV, 21).
The etymology of the bread name is: (1278) gred mich (Pfeiffers Germania, XV, 80) ; mndl. crede micke ; mlat. credemica ( based on mica = 3 bread crumbs, Du Gange) ; micke sa momicke hröt (Pfeiffers Germ., V, 80) »> panis qui dicitur Gredmich, Gredemich (Voc. thent.) ; 1329 in pane Gredennih ; Fifteenth century, ein phannen zelten in der breite als ein gredmich; 1458 greding; 1525 gredling (Schweiz, Id., II, 705);
...
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RE: 116v - -JKP- - 29-10-2018
There's a long discussion of the last phrase on the last line on another thread (probably more than one thread):
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RE: 116v - nablator - 08-12-2018
(29-09-2018, 03:00 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The text on 116v is almost readable and is conventional Latin characters, so it may not be related to Voynichese in any way, but something few people mention is the "caret" on the underside of the "o" and it might be important. It might be intended as a pronunciation symbol. If the person writing this learned Latin as a second language (as was the purview of scholars by the 15th century), it might account for the oddities in the text and possibly also for the mark attached to the "o".
Interesting symbols (including "o" with caret below) in the margin: BSB-Hss Clm 3712 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 08-12-2018
(08-12-2018, 02:49 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(29-09-2018, 03:00 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The text on 116v is almost readable and is conventional Latin characters, so it may not be related to Voynichese in any way, but something few people mention is the "caret" on the underside of the "o" and it might be important. It might be intended as a pronunciation symbol. If the person writing this learned Latin as a second language (as was the purview of scholars by the 15th century), it might account for the oddities in the text and possibly also for the mark attached to the "o".
Interesting symbols (including "o" with caret below) in the margin: BSB-Hss Clm 3712 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
I'm familiar with this manuscript. It has text in several hands.
When I first saw it, I was wondering if the "margin" hand (there's more than one margin hand) that wrote those symbols was writing medieval 4 with 2 strokes instead of 1, but it does seem to be a separate symbol from 4. I don't know if I would call it a caret (it is certainly caret-shaped), as it is so large and long, it's closer to medieval 7 than a caret, but nevertheless appears to be used as a symbol in its own right.
I also noticed that one of the other scribes writes medieval 14 (the old style of 4) almost like EVA-k because he tends to lean back the 4 more than usual.
RE: 116v - Davidsch - 11-12-2018
(08-12-2018, 02:49 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(29-09-2018, 03:00 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The text on 116v is almost readable and is conventional Latin characters, so it may not be related to Voynichese in any way, but something few people mention is the "caret" on the underside of the "o" and it might be important. It might be intended as a pronunciation symbol. If the person writing this learned Latin as a second language (as was the purview of scholars by the 15th century), it might account for the oddities in the text and possibly also for the mark attached to the "o".
Interesting symbols (including "o" with caret below) in the margin: BSB-Hss Clm 3712 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Those are text markings, often made by a student or a reader and sometimes they are scribe instructions.
RE: 116v - Thomas_S - 12-01-2019
Among the items added to e-codices.ch very recently on december 14, 2018 is Cod.Sang.931 which on the last page has a marginalia which has some ressemblance with the top line of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , see the following You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (especially the 'r' of the various "noster").
Seeing this, the last word of the top line of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might be "noster", signifying this might be a library mark, or a short prayer.