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+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - Searcher - 19-04-2016
Hi, David and all members of this forum!
Many of you know me from the vms-list, but I'm a new visitor to this Voynich forum. I'd like to share my new thought and catch myself at the tradition to start my acquaintance or entry with the theme of the marginalia on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It seems, what could be said more about it?! Possibly, I have a complete explanation of two marginalia (f116v and f66r). Of course, they are closely associated. In the case of the f66r, I was sure about meaning of its notes and pictures (treatment of the kidneys diseases), but the marginalia on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. were still enigmatic, no matter that some part of words was identified, the second part always confused. In the past I also did it partially and partially was wrong.
Now I think, it is in German combined with Latin. I agree that the first two words are "Pox leber" (goat liver). Then - "union" and some illegible word ("p\'[ ]'fer", "v\'[ ]'fer" or "r\'[ ]'fer"), on my opinion, it is, rather, written as "k??pfer", that can be You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in German (English "camphor"). Camphor is famous for its properties: cooling, spasmolytical, sedative. You can read about use of any animal's liver You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., as well, camphor is mentioned. So, we have:
"Pox leber union k...pfer"
The first word of the second line I see as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which means some kind of sacred wood or another material for altar-fire, in another sources, a material which, vice versa, protects from fire. Personally, I think about first variant, but doubt that it is just wood, it can be a pitch (resin, tar), but it's an open question, of course, as only reading of an origin is a main argument for propositions.
My interpretation of the marginalia of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. without first line is:
"anchiton (sacred combustible material) ola (olea or olla) dabas + miltos (hematite, Lat.: rubrica Sinopica) + te + You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) + [portas + N (nomen) + sis + marix + morix + vix + alma mama (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) ]+ aror shc9 valsen You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ren(es) so nim(m) gas mich O...."
So, I still think that this is a recipe with elements of a charm. The spell: "[font=Georgia, 'Times New Roman', 'Bitstream Charter', Times, serif]portas + N (nomen) + six + marix + morix + vix + alma mama (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)" [/font]
Probably, valsen is the same as German walzen (to break up, to roll or to mill), ubi ren(es) - where the kidney(s) is, so nim - so take ..... The part "gasmich" is still problematic for me, maybe You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.?! You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - meaning: clear, bright.
And, finally, the last letter "o" with the four points above it may be not a letter at all. It could be some kind of a pictogram which means a stone (maybe, tartar) which left a body.
I think the same "O", but a little bigger and with stones in it is on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. near the sick woman racked with pain which take her hand on the body side. I think, it depicts a kidney with stones. On this page I see three words: ren (kidney), mel (honey) and mur or mus, or mul (questionable word - maybe, mulco, muria, mus etc.), or, maybe, it's an abbreviation of "mutare" (mut'), for instance.
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So, possibly both marginalia with pictures represent kidney deseases, to be more precise, lithonephria and the way of its treatment: recipes of remedies: plasters or a compresses, and, finally, a charm adressed to Alma Mater (Alma Mamma or Alma Maria), of course.
YM
RE: 116v - Wladimir D - 20-04-2016
(17-04-2016, 02:28 PM)Антон Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Wladimir,
This is not related to 116v, please keep the discussion on-topic.
Anton. Three marginalia must be considered in the complex (was used one language) . Maybe it You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. plant is used for the procedure in the marginalia f66r. Maybe that's why on this page is written the same lonely symbol (abbreviation , [font=arial, sans-serif]capital letter ). [/font]
Other the similar characters are in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. page, written with a short leg.
On the abdomen remained a trace of yellow liquid in a bucket.
RE: 116v - Anton - 20-04-2016
Wladimir:
I see absolutely no reasons why three marginalia must be considered in the complex.
Searcher:
Any "complete explanation" would involve at least coherent readings, compliant with orthography and grammar (the spell portion apart - spells are not subject to grammar).
RE: 116v - Searcher - 20-04-2016
(20-04-2016, 02:01 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Searcher:
Any "complete explanation" would involve at least coherent readings, compliant with orthography and grammar (the spell portion apart - spells are not subject to grammar).
Hi Anton!
A short recipe or a recipe generally must not be written in compliance with grammar rules of the language, as a matter of fact, it is just as syllabus, enumeration of components and actions. Of course, I doubt in "valsen" and in "gasnich" and I hope someone, who knows and speaks German will help with this problem. I'm a woman, so I make notes of different recipes very often. They don't look like a story.
RE: 116v - Anton - 20-04-2016
I think we should distinguish two cases. In one case a recipe may look in such way that the grammar simply does not have to manifest itself. Like e.g.:
"sugar bread butter"
This is in essence just an unordered list, so grammar just does not have much room for itself here.
On the contrary, in the cases where grammar rules are applicable, they generally will be applied. Like nobody will write "you has" when grammar prescribes "you have".
Besides, there are no reasonable grounds to consider in advance the text in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as recipe. Although chances are that the main portion thereof represents a spell or a "charm", there is no evidence that it is a recipe.
The occurrence of "anchiton" that you quote is very interesting. The Exodus speaks of the "setim" wood, the origin of which is unknown but it is believed to be Acacia. Does anyone know why it is called "anchiton" in the comments? And what is "ligno fimile", mentioned as a synonym to anchiton?
RE: 116v - VViews - 20-04-2016
Anton,
"fimile" is to be read "simile". It's the old "f" for "s" thing.
"ligno simile" means "similar" or "same" wood.
As far as I can tell the sentence reads:
"Nec mirum hoc de sanctuario et interioribus templi et altaris et thymiamatis credere, cuius etiam anchiton ligni genus vel ligno simile, quato plus arcerit tanto mundius inveniatur."
Google translates this as:
"Nor is it surprising that this is the temple, and the altar, and of incense, and the internal ones to believe that out of the sanctuary, who is also the anchiton of the tree of the genus or the tree of the same, as regards more excluded from, the more and be found."
The other plant referred to in this sentence is "thymiamatis", this is a kind of wood used as incense, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as "shittim wood". Shittim wood is derived from the shittah tree (a kind of acacia), in the bible it is apparently the wood from which the Ark of the Covenant and the furniture of the Taberncle were made. There is a possibility that this tree is the biblical "burning bush".
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similar to:
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So, what I'm getting from this is that the anchiton would be like the thymiamatis, a kind of acacia that seems to be very important for its use in temples for incense and as a material for sacred paraphernalia.
RE: 116v - Anton - 20-04-2016
Ah yes you are right, this is simply "simile"
The biblical quotes are situated in the centre of the page, and they refer to "setim" - no doubt the same as "shittim". Yes, that's of the Acacia genus, as I wrote above.
The question is why Nicolas de Lyra (are these his comments) calls it "anchiton"? All in all, looks like a Greek word, as I noted back then in my blogpost dedicated to f116v. But I failed to find it in a dictionary.
RE: 116v - Anton - 21-04-2016
The book You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has "Toga anchiton" in its index, and discusses clothes (chiton); interestingly though, the main text does not call it "anchiton", but "chiton " or "chytlon" and references Greek "αχιτον" (not "ανχιτον"). The word "anchiton" is mentioned in index only.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. says (p. 204):
"Et de huiusmodi lignis, quae ex sentencia Hieronymi putantur esse de lignis paradisi, censetur esse constructum altare holocausti, ne a vicino igne eius structura concremaretur. Imo dicunt esse aliud genus ligni, quod dicitur Anchiton: quod quidem quanto plus arserit, tanto mundius euadit."
So Anchiton is "another" type of tree, which wood is not burnt by the fire, but rather purified by it.
RE: 116v - Searcher - 21-04-2016
(20-04-2016, 07:31 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Besides, there are no reasonable grounds to consider in advance the text in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as recipe. Although chances are that the main portion thereof represents a spell or a "charm", there is no evidence that it is a recipe.
The occurrence of "anchiton" that you quote is very interesting. The Exodus speaks of the "setim" wood, the origin of which is unknown but it is believed to be Acacia. Does anyone know why it is called "anchiton" in the comments? And what is "ligno fimile", mentioned as a synonym to anchiton?
On my opinion, recipe is the best candidate, especially, if "pox leber", "kampfer", "anchiton", "miltos", "tar" or "tartere" are correct reading. They are can be components: goat liver + camfor + gum + hematite powder.
Actualy, the word which I interpreted as "union" may be also You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., in the sense of "to contact", or "to separate", for example.( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) This word is closer to Old English and Dutch, but, from the other hand, "gas mich" could also be read as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , "valsen" isn't clear German, as well. As I can assume, these uses are older, then the manuscript itself.
My interpretation isn't perfect, without doubt, as letters are faded, language or, rather, dialect is unknown.
As for "anchiton", I don't know what was the real source, possibly, it is Greek, it is very rare, as I understand. From that text: "anchiton" is a wood or a material similar to wood (ligno simile) taken for a sacred altar, altars were made of trees from Paradise. Perhaps, it is the same as "setim". I don't know why, but I assume, it can be just resin (pitch, tar, gum) of pine-tree, acacia or else.
RE: 116v - Anton - 21-04-2016
OK I think we nailed anchiton down.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. refers to some stories about Alexander, in particular how he built a gate (btw, there are also "portas" in f116v!) and covered them with a substance which neither fire nor iron can take.
This substance is called diffrently in different sources, e.g. on page 91 the book, speaking of "Historia de praeliis", says:
"the fabric, which resists fire and iron, which he overmold the iron gates <is called here>: antichiton and anchiton. The true spelling of this word is uncertain <there is a also a useful footnote>. Muller believes that asbestos is meant."
Earlier on p. 89 it is stated that in another source the substance is called "asixeton".
The whole stuff is explored in pages 89-91. It would be nice if some of our Dutch members could provide translation of the narrative. Google translator is good with Dutch, but well three pages translation is cumbersome for me
The PDF of the book is downloadable.
So anchiton is a mythical substance resistant to fire and iron.
Searcher:
Why rush with assumptions not having acquainted yourself with the previous works on f116v. In particular, I recommend to your attention the considerations that J.K.Petersen, D. Jackson and myself
wrote about these marginalia, let alone the Elmar Vogt's survey.If "pox leber" is the correct reading (I'm pretty sure that it is), there is no proof that it relates literally to goat's liver. "pox something" is a typical obscene expression from the medieval carnival culture, I've got really tired to reiterate this time and again , especially given that I pointed it out above in this thread.
"gas mich" could by no means be read as "gaf mich" - that's an "s", and not an "f".
"valsen" would sooner be "valden", and not "valsen", because the 8 letter is not in the end of the word.
So I'm sorry to say that your interpretation is not only "not perfect", it is, in my opinion, quite inconsistent.
&c &c
But your note about anchiton has been truly encouraging, because we seem to have digged out what it actually is and... that settles the decades' dispute between "anchiton" and "michiton"!!! It's "anchiton" after all!
I'd say that's the Voynich event of the year.
(And btw the evidence of effectiveness of our forum).