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+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - Koen G - 22-10-2018
You are right Anton, as long as you think a certain reading is viable, any possible connection to the any source should be exhausted.
With regards to the Alexander anchiton, is there any specialist (translator..?) we might ask about the word?
RE: 116v - Anton - 22-10-2018
Don't know if there's been a keener specialist in this legend than Anderson, but he's mute upon that. But I still have to check something maybe. The fact that the word form "anchiton" as related to the Alexander's gates is met with only in a Hebrew source is suggestive maybe.
RE: 116v - VViews - 24-10-2018
(Edit: I moved this here from the other thread, as this is where you mentioned that book)
Hi Anton,
I'm curious about the Anderson book you mentioned further up in the thread. Did it provide any information about the material used for Alexander's Gates?
Also, wikipedia (sorry) tells me that the Gates are mentioned in several ancient and medieval sources such as the Jewish War (75AD), the Antiquities of the Jews (93 or 94 AD), as well as the Alexander Romance, the Travels of Marco Polo, the John de Mandeville manuscripts, and the German medieval legend of the Red Jews (13th -15thC)...
I wonder if there might be traces of anchiton in some versions of those. Does Anderson mention them?
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 24-10-2018
Are there any famous gates that have been rebuilt many times?
RE: 116v - nablator - 24-10-2018
(24-10-2018, 04:24 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I wonder if there might be traces of anchiton in some versions of those.About Alexander's Gates there is a Hebrew version (that I can't read) of the legend in:
Israël Lévi - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - Revue des Études Juives 3 (1881), p. 274
Translated to Latin :
Tunc continuo deprecatus est deum Alexander impensius exaudivitque ejus deprecationes et precepit deus duobus montibus quibus est vocabulum promunctorium boreum, et adjuncti sunt ad invicem usque cubitos xii, et statim construxit portas heneas et circumfudit eas antichiton quod a ferro non corrumpitur nec ab igne solvitur.
Talis est enim natura anchiton, quod ferrum constringet in comminationem ignemque, ut aqua extinguit et nullus prevalet ad eos intrare nec illi ullo modo exinde exire.
In the French translation of the Hebrew text, next page, there is no specific word for the preparation of iron, lead and copper that is meant to prevent melting by fire and breaking under the blows of a hammer.
RE: 116v - Koen G - 24-10-2018
The -n- in anchiton feels off for a Greek word, so it would make sense if it were a corruption of antichiton.
One of the meanings of χῐτών, as in the tunic, is "coat, covering", which is exactly the way "antichiton" is used by Alexander: he covers the gates in the substance. I guess it could be translated as "anti-coating"? Maybe with some liberty: "coating against ...."
RE: 116v - davidjackson - 24-10-2018
I thought it meant armour? Which would be the use Alexander gave to it, he used it to protect the gates. I don't think the English meaning of covering (clothes) and covering (coating) would work in ancient Greek?
That's why it gave its name to molluscs and beetle exoskins (chitinous).
So anti-armour.... dunno. Amour piercing?
Could it be a proposition that is being misused? an chiton? An means "or", doesn't it?
RE: 116v - Koen G - 24-10-2018
Compounds with anti- in Greek can be somewhat different than the current use. Take "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.". It comes from antidoton (pharmakon), a drug given "against". Literally "againstgiven drug".
In the modern use, the second part of anti-compounds would be the thing which is protected against. Anti-tank protects against tanks. Anti-bugs protects against bugs.
But "anti-doton" does not protect against "given", the drug (antidote) is given. The "anti" is almost like a property of the drug, it works "against x". Antidoton pharmakon is a given drug against an unnamed danger. Following the same structure, antichiton would be an armor against an unnamed danger.
(This danger would of course be named in the rest of the sentence, i.e. fire and whatever)
The same pattern in "antagonist", which is from the Greek verb antagonizesthai "to struggle against". So an antagonist is an "against-struggler". He struggles against x, where "x" is not part of the word. If anti-chiton were a verb form, it would be "to armor against x", so the same structure.
Antidoton: (medicine) given against x
Antagonize: struggle against x
Antithesis: thesis against x
Antipathy: feeling against x
Anitchiton: armor, coat,.. against x
RE: 116v - Anton - 24-10-2018
(24-10-2018, 04:24 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(Edit: I moved this here from the other thread, as this is where you mentioned that book)
Hi Anton,
I'm curious about the Anderson book you mentioned further up in the thread. Did it provide any information about the material used for Alexander's Gates?
Also, wikipedia (sorry) tells me that the Gates are mentioned in several ancient and medieval sources such as the Jewish War (75AD), the Antiquities of the Jews (93 or 94 AD), as well as the Alexander Romance, the Travels of Marco Polo, the John de Mandeville manuscripts, and the German medieval legend of the Red Jews (13th -15thC)...
I wonder if there might be traces of anchiton in some versions of those. Does Anderson mention them?
Yes, I'll right about that in a while, just don't have time at present.
Quote:Antidoton: (medicine) given against x
Antagonize: struggle against x
Antithesis: thesis against x
Antipathy: feeling against x
Anitchiton: armor, coat,.. against x
More generally, there a Greek name "Anton", which means "the guy who is against". Suits me fine
RE: 116v - Koen G - 24-10-2018
Ha, you're a real Anton
I just realized that there are English words as well where anti- is used in this way. Think of the word antibodies. They are bodies that protect against something. If antichiton is like I think it is, then it must be structured in the same way. A "chiton" that protects.