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+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 09-07-2018
I like sneaking back to 116v like you all and my reading at present is „palden p[ro]b[i]ren so nim geis mi[l]ch“. palden/balden is German bald/Engl. soon or next, probiren is Engl. to try out. „Let‘s try next: take goats milk ...“ At least it is proper German and it makes sense and it does not make any palaeographhical problems. I don‘t doubt the whole last line is German and the abbreviating style fits well to the rest. I suppose it sounds a bit simple, but I am more and more convinced that the ms. IS something simple and that there is a lot of overinterpretation around.
RE: 116v - Anton - 09-07-2018
(09-07-2018, 03:31 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This has its problems of course, including the fact that 8 seems to occur midword in "val8en".
Oh well, I should have kept in mind my own point about the uncertainty of spaces in f116v! Suppose it's not midword, but end of the word, with sn being the subsequent word. The sn then expands to eren, and we have vals eren. "Vals" is false (see Lexer), "eren" is more vague because (Lexer again) it may refer to Ernte, Ehre, or ehren. "False praise" or "false innocence" are concepts that are not totally unexpected in the context of a spell. Not sure about the correct declension though.
One may argue that there's no space at all, but there is no larger space between "gas" and "mich".
RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 09-07-2018
I forgot to say: The 8 simply can't be an s it must be a d, as Marco said, becauseit it is inword, in this place it would be be a long s as in so and not a round s which is only used in the end of a word, this is even so in later German Kurrentschrift and Sütterlin-Schrift, the last line of the Sangallensis Marco is showing is the best evidence you could show, das with the 8's for d and s in the end 0f the word and sind with a long s,
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 09-07-2018
It's possible the figure-8 is used for both "d" and "s". In some scripts final-s and d are almost indistinguishable, so I suppose it's not impossible that someone might use the same shape for both. It's not the kind of thing that's common, but many things about the VMS are not common.
It's very very common for scribes to use two forms for "d" and they use them interchangeably (the looped and non-looped forms), so the "d" shape in oladaba8 (the fourth letter) might still be a "d" if 8 is used as both "s" and "d".
RE: 116v - Searcher - 10-07-2018
We discussed it many times, but I don't remember if the next supposition was explored or not.
Thomas Coon wrote:
Quote:As for the meaning of "valden ubren so nim gas mich":So, I don't remember whether the word ubren was considered as adopted or adapted Latin word You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or not. It seems to me that this could be quite natural to see the word udder (German Euter) in the sentence which ends with the words "so take goat milk".
1) valden:
I'm not sure about the last three letters in valden - but if they are -den:
The online Lexers dictionary entry for "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view." gives the alternative Middle High German form "valden" - both are present-day "falten" (to fold). If you are looking for some instructions how to apply the spell (wear it on your neck, say three Ave Marias, etc.), then folding something may be an instruction. My paperback copy of Lexers dictionary (33rd edition) confirms that valten / valden are verbs that can mean NHD falten (to fold), zusammenfalten (fold together), or verschränken (to interlace or cross, e.g. arms / fingers / legs or sides of paper)
Ubre is Spanish variant of this word, but I don't exclude that there must be ub[e]ren, if it is Latin accusative, it must be uberem. It is interesting, could be ub[e]ren be transormed uberem, or it means German plural form, just like Eutern.
As for me, I'm not surprised if it is Latin as we see here a few words which pretty well can be Latin. And all we met such mixed medieval texts .
My general questions are:
1) Can an udder (Euter, uber) be folded, rolled, twisted or corrugated (valten / falten)?
2) Can ub[e]ren be a noun in accusative plural, meaning nipples of an udder or it is rather a substitution for Latin uberem?
RE: 116v - Anton - 10-07-2018
Well, my new idea was to apply known abbreviation shortcuts, not to imply abbreviations not marked as such. In the last line, there are three potential abbreviation candidates: the "8" (if abbreviation at all), the "s" and the ending character of "ubren" which is of course not a typical "n".
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 11-07-2018
If the first letter of palsen/valsen and pbren/ubren is a p with the stem wiped out (it is not written like a normal "v" or like the other "v" shape on the folio) then it is also potentially an abbreviation for "per" or "pro", since the line to make it an abbreviation is through the descender.
I have searched thousands and thousands of manuscripts looking for a "v" shape that looks like "valsen" in scripts that bear at least some resemblance to the marginalia (score 50 or higher out of 120) and I simply can't find it. Nobody drew "v" with a short beginning serif with an almost vertical beginning stem and a long bottom, but the shape DOES look like a normal and common medieval open-top "p".
Here are some examples of "v" (from words where it can be verified that this is "v"). The "v" shape was used interchangeably with what we now call the "u" shape, and was often drawn like a backleaning "b", but I can't find it drawn like the first letter in valsen/palsen/valden/palden, at least not so far:
![[Image: SamplesUV.png]](https://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/SamplesUV.png)
The "v" in "vix" is a little out of character with the other shapes in the script, but it's not unusual. I have found some that match:
![[Image: V-Pcompare.png]](https://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/V-Pcompare.png)
So, either the "v" is very weirdly drawn and very nonstandard, or it is a "p" with the stem wiped out (note there is quite a bit of expunging under the last line, especially under EVA-y, and about half of the EVA-y tail is partly faded or erased as well), or it is something else.
RE: 116v - Koen G - 11-07-2018
If it's translated as Helmut says, then I'd interpret the plummeting rock as drops of milk falling towards the opening of a bucket or a round object. Although the drops actually fall next to the bucket.
Now I'm imagining a situation where one person spilled goat's milk and another wrote this at his expense. Next time try to catch the goat's milk.
Unless gas can be an abbreviation of ganz, in which case it's next time try to take the milk completely.
Edit: also, if this is addressing someone, that means he used Voynichese script to write the guy's name!
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 11-07-2018
I don't have time to post a picture... but if you look closely at a good scan of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , something I've noticed, especially on the right-hand side, is that there are many rows of dots scattered about.
I didn't notice this at first. But... if there are lots of dots, one has to wonder if the person drawing on the folio maybe saw a pattern in the dots and dotted it in.
Look under the p in "portas", just below "gaf mich". Four lines of dots, and another under the "t" in "portas" . But they are not inked, so they don't show up unless you look for them.
RE: 116v - Anton - 11-07-2018
I think I just found most realistic explanation of "palden" without any abbreviations. Remember that we discussed the interchangeability of "p" and "b" in the beginning of MHD words. So considering "palden", one should look also for "balden" (as Helmut also considers above)!
Here's what the MHD dictionary (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) gives for "balden":
1) "kühn werden, erstarken, erdreisten"
2) "schnell werden, eilen", notably "hin bald von mir, Sathanas!"
So it's either "to strenghten" or "to dare", or "to hurry up" (the latter relevant in meaning to "soon" which Helmut outlined above).