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+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - -JKP- - 24-03-2017
Great stuff, Marco. Good job.
I have also seen honey spelled "mel" (even though it's usually mellis). Without context, it's difficult to tell the difference between mel - honey and mel - flour.
It occurred to me today that "portas" could also be "por tas". There is a slightly larger space there.
RE: 116v - Anton - 24-03-2017
Marco, did you notice any quantitative characteristics or modus operandi in those recipes that could be potentially mapped to aror sheey?
RE: 116v - MarcoP - 24-03-2017
(24-03-2017, 01:41 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco, did you notice any quantitative characteristics or modus operandi in those recipes that could be potentially mapped to aror sheey?
Hi Anton,
is this interpretation of aror sheey something that has been discussed in this thread before? If so, could you link the relevant post? Or could you clarify what you have in mind?
The Occitan You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. does include quantitative information, in particular about the duration or frequency of the cures. E.g.:
- aisso fay, si mestier y a, de dos en dos mezeis - if needed, do so every two months
- pantefilion begut par vint e tres jors sana tost - drinking pentaphilion for 23 days immediately heals...
- ayssy faga per tres o per catre horas - do so for three or four hours
There are several expressions similar to those above, but at first sight I don't see any in the goat-related recipes.
RE: 116v - Anton - 24-03-2017
The thread is now huge, so I'm not sure if it was discussed here before, although I think it was. Instead, you may wish to check my old You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. where the idea is explained. In short, the idea is that the last line of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. contains information related to the spell (charm, recipe etc.) above it, and that it is the most important portion of that information that is encrypted (with aror sheey):
Quote:What would be the most important portion of line 3? Surely, the most informative/specific one. Recall that we expect line 3 to contain instructions on how to use the spell. Recall also that we have not yet confidently located the purpose of the spell. So the possibilities are:
- quantitative characteristic, like “three times” or “seven days”;
- qualitative modus operandi, like “wear on the neck”;
- name of the disease, like “against delirium tremens”.
It is suggestive that all your examples speak of the amount of time.
RE: 116v - MarcoP - 24-03-2017
Thank you Anton!
I don't remember if I read your blog post in the past. I think my current opinion is very close to what you wrote there.
The main difference is that I think "line 0" (pox leber ...) and the illustrated animal could be consistent with gas mich / geissmilch: all parts of a "goat related" recipe. See also the evidence posted by Rene You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
All our attempts have not made any progress in the reading of the two Latin-related central lines with crosses: we have found possible matches for several words, but no structure. As you wrote in your blog, these two lines might be "a somewhat incoherent sequence of phrases".
In my opinion, a search in Buitzruss You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. could provide other examples of "so nim", so we can understand better what can appear before that expression (hence what the two Voynichese words might be). In the example discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., "so nim" is immediately preceded by the the title of the recipe (the illness it cures). Examples with a spell would certainly be more informative, but I don't remember if we found any.
Coming back to the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it features examples of all the three options you mention:
quantitative characteristic, like “three times” or “seven days”;
as you noticed, the examples above are all about time;
two recipes also give quantitative doses expressed in onces:
api, levam, doas onces, de fromen tres onces, - apium leaves (?) two ounces, wheat three ounces
qualitative modus operandi, like “wear on the neck”;
the text with crosses mentions the names of the three Magi, just like the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. you dicussed in your blog. The prescription is to "take with you their names written" (portara ambe si les noms d’aquels escrigz).
name of the disease, like “against delirium tremens”
of course, this is the most common case. In this ms, the chapters have actual numbered titles with a brief description of the disease. E.g.
- [VIII] A dolor d’aurelhas - for auricular pain
[XIII] Cant on non pot dormir - when one cannot sleep
RE: 116v - piracan - 24-03-2017
after po(x) leber umens the word is probably Lucifer
RE: 116v - Anton - 24-03-2017
Yes of course when something is ending with "fer", "Lucifer" (or, in this case, "Lutzifer") would be what comes to mind, but unfortunately I see no possibility for the leading letter to be an "L", whether capitalized or not.
It could be a "p", an "u/v", a smeared "k" or "y", an awkward "m", but "L/l"... no way, I think.
RE: 116v - Searcher - 24-03-2017
Anton:
Quote:I'd also look if "ola" is mentioned in comments to Bible ("anchiton" is, as we saw previously).
A little about "ola" or "olah":
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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As for "portas", I think that it may also be possible that "tere" or "cere" before it is the Latin verb in imperative. Therefore: "Rub the gates/doors" or "Wax the gates" (if "cere" instead of "cera" was ever used as imperative).
In general: You gave/putted in/placed rised/purified You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. = asbestos?, ochre, then a drop? (Danish)/pitch (English and some German dialects), (so) rub the gates ...
Or, maybe: You made purgative offering...
P.S. If I'm not mistaken, foreign not habitual transliterated words are not inclined, as a rule.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 25-03-2017
anchiton might be interpretable as "anzi con".
I've wondered for a while if the "ch" might be Greek letter chi, which was sometimes written as "x". The "ton" is a very common Greek word (also French).
This led me to anxiton or anxi ton, but that still didn't yield much in any language (it's "hips" in Italian, but that doesn't seem to fit within this context), and then I remembered anzi from Italian, but it wouldn't make sense if followed by "ton" unless... that is a "c" instead of a "t" (they are often written the same in old manuscripts).
Which led to "anzi con"... which would not be an unusual way to start a charm, chant, or remedy, especially if the next word were a noun.
By itself, "o la dabas" makes sense in Spanish (or give that/or given) but it's not so easy to rationalize the combination of anzi con o la dabas with an "o" (or) in between.
But, if it's "ola" instead of "o la" and if "ola" is some ingredient like oil or egg or ??, then, "Anzi con ola dabas" might be a way of saying, "Indeed with "ola" take/give + miltos (Greek: cinnabar, Latvian: flour)..."
Cinnabar was toxic but was, in fact, a medicinal ingredient in the middle ages.
RE: 116v - Diane - 26-03-2017
-JKP-
Mineral cinnabar was toxic; the vegetable cinnabar not. The latter was true 'minim' as well as being used in medicine and came from C.cinnabaris - or should have. Shonky salesmen aren't a new thing.
We get classical texts already talking about how second-grade physicians are getting the two sorts confused, and poisoning their patients, but there's no doubt it was possible to get the real thing even in the earlier medieval centuries, and even as far as England, even if supply seems to have been intermittent.
What we can't always be sure of, in the medieval recipes, is what is meant by cinnabar at any given time or in any given region. I mean - you can't be sure from the recipes unless they specify, though cross-referencing with the pigments being used in manuscripts at that time gives a better indication.