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+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - Koen G - 23-03-2017
A second person imperfect reminds me of the way one addresses a revered figure, as in "You died on the cross for our sins".
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 23-03-2017
I keep forgetting to mention that valde is "very" in Latin and those who wrote in Macaronic Latin/German often added German endings to Latin words, so there is some possibility that "valde[n]" might be Latin.
If the figure-8 is an "s" rather than something like "d"...
In old low German, walsen can mean to roll. The letters "w" and "v" were often used interchangeably in old German.
RE: 116v - Searcher - 23-03-2017
(23-03-2017, 08:40 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A second person imperfect reminds me of the way one addresses a revered figure, as in "You died on the cross for our sins".
Possibly, it is something like a speech, appealed to the Lord during a ritual?!
RE: 116v - Koen G - 23-03-2017
I don't know, but it would be appropriate for the person and tense.
By itself, it would be unusual to have a past tense for an instruction. Instructions are either present or future. But if it's part of an instruction, then I'd expect the imperative to follow. For example:
* You chopped the onions. Now add them to the mixture.
I guess the key to checking whether "anchiton ola dabas" is a valid reading is now to come to a better understanding of "anchiton".
RE: 116v - Searcher - 23-03-2017
(23-03-2017, 10:07 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't know, but it would be appropriate for the person and tense.
By itself, it would be unusual to have a past tense for an instruction. Instructions are either present or future. But if it's part of an instruction, then I'd expect the imperative to follow. For example:
* You chopped the onions. Now add them to the mixture.
I guess the key to checking whether "anchiton ola dabas" is a valid reading is now to come to a better understanding of "anchiton".
Yes, we need an opinion of paleographers, which are familiar with different historical and cultural pecliarities of manner of writings.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 23-03-2017
Many of the healing charms and herbal remedies have almost no grammar. They have quantities and ingredients and sometimes not even quantities.
When they do have some grammar, it's often simple words like "take flour and milk, write [charm word] and wear on neck 9 days" or note form: "Ointment: roast ______ add honey".
In those with more grammar, one sees instructions like, "Write on a zettell (small piece of paper) [list of charm words]. Then he should the first day take _[ingredients]_ for nine days. He should [list of instructions] until the ninth day... and then burn the zettell." etc.
RE: 116v - Koen G - 23-03-2017
Yeah that's basically what I mean, a set of instructions requires little grammar. I like the reading of the -abas ending as a second person imperfectum, but it would be weird in a short instruction.
RE: 116v - Anton - 23-03-2017
Instructions would require imperative, which is apparently not the case here. Moreover, the crosses in between suggest this block to be a spell, so instructions would follow it (like, in the last line), not be within it.
Both anchiton and ola both are nouns seemingly in nominative case. In this context, a verb to follow them would look strange. What I'd try is to look if "dabas" can be also a noun. In that case, that would be a list: "anchiton, ola, dabas", only commas are omitted. That they are grouped within a single pair of crosses increases this possibility.
I'd also look if "ola" is mentioned in comments to Bible ("anchiton" is, as we saw previously).
RE: 116v - Anton - 23-03-2017
I just noted that in Hebrew "דבַש" (pronounced dvash) means "honey". In the Bible it's mostly not bee honey, but dates mesh. Dates mesh is called "honey" still in our days (Algeria produces most delicious samples of that, be sure to taste it when you have an opportunity). However, the Bible explicitly forbids using "honey" in offerings (see Lev. 2:11).
RE: 116v - MarcoP - 24-03-2017
1) Yesterday I went to the library and checked “El libro agregà de Serapiom”, Ineichen's 1962 transcription of the text of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (the Carrarese Herbal, written in Padua between 1390 and 1404). It's the vulgar (Veneto dialect) translation of the Latin version of an Arabic treaty.
It contains recipes making use of goat milk and liver. The language is also interesting. In particular:
- ola for the Latin “olla” (jar)
- marixe for the Latin “matrix” (uterus)
- cera identical to the Latin (wax)
- raixe (root)
- cuoxe (cook - imperative)
- infiaxone (swellings)
2) I have also found an online transcription of an Occitan medical text from Southern France: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Ms.: Chantilly, Musée Condé 330, mid-fifteenth century). The text was transcribed by Maria Sofia Corradini. The site contains a number of other interesting transcription of medical texts.
The book in which the transcriptions were originally published was You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (well known in the Voynich community).
It was also discussed by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Some words of interest:
- portas – used both as imperative and as second person present indicative (“bring” - modern French portez)
- ola – also here for the Latin “olla” (jar)
- cera – also here for “wax”
- avia – for the Latin “habeas” 2nd person singular subjunctive (qui avia mal – whoever had pain)
- boch - “billy goat” (picas ensemps lo sanc del boch e·l fege e·l polmo e·ls ronhons – take together the blood of the billy goat and its liver and its lungs and its kidneys)
- mel - honey (this could be relevant for Voynich You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
There are recipes with goat's milk ("suc d’alfabrega, dada a beure ambe lait de cabra").