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+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - Davidsch - 18-03-2017
interj., s. box theil 2, 281: ei dasz euch pox filzhut schend mit euerm essen!
Schade sat. 3, 107, 3; dasz euch pox leber schend! 107, 24; pox marter! 103, 20;
[font=LinuxLibertineRegular, LinuxLibertineItalic, LinuxLibertineBold, LinuxLibertineCRegular]pox glück, schau wie der stattknecht hauffen
mit latern dort auffer lauffn!
Ayrer 2353, 18.[/font]
[font=LinuxLibertineRegular, LinuxLibertineItalic, LinuxLibertineBold, LinuxLibertineCRegular]source: [/font]Deutsches Wörterbuch von Jacob und Wilhelm Grimm. 16 Bde. in 32 Teilbänden. Leipzig 1854-1961. Quellenverzeichnis Leipzig 1971. Online-Version vom 18.03.2017.
RE: 116v - Searcher - 19-03-2017
As we return to the issue of the marginalia on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. again, in particular, to the first line, I tried to find any sensible meaning of the second word of this line. I see it as "umen". I'm not sure that this is an abbreviation, since there is no significants, which could point it (this is my argument, at least). To be honest, Google doesn't want to search for this word well
So, it was too long.I already mentioned umen as Umbrian word for ointment, but it is quite not the needed range of the time. Finally, I 've found it and time of its use quite fits.
As I understand from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a variant of German spelling um, umhin, umb, umben, umbi, Latin circa, English about, around.
The question is: Could it make any sense with any interpretation of "poxlebe*"?
RE: 116v - Searcher - 21-03-2017
I've edited this line a little.
The third word looks like *o**fer, I almost sure that the second letter is "o", therefore it could be "voti'fer" or "votyfer", "poti'fer" or "potyfer", "roti'/ufer", "rotpfer[]", "roepfer". I'm still not sure about the first letter, whether it has a bar at the bottom or it doesn't.
The third letter was corrected, maybe the scribe began to write "rop...". but then amended this into "roe...". As I correctly understand from German, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a person (a woman?) predicting labour (birth pangs). You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is only one source, where I found this word, so I can't understand, when it was used first. Earlier examples of the same etymology are You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (a woman-caller or a crier, a caller).
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 21-03-2017
(21-03-2017, 12:42 AM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've edited this line a little.
The third word looks like *o**fer, I almost sure that the second letter is "o", therefore it could be "voti'fer" or "votyfer", "poti'fer" or "potyfer", "roti'/ufer", "rotpfer[]", "roepfer". I'm still not sure about the first letter, whether it has a bar at the bottom or it doesn't.
The third letter was corrected, maybe the scribe began to write "rop...". but then amended this into "roe...". As I correctly understand from German, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a person (a woman?) predicting labour (birth pangs). You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is only one source, where I found this word, so I can't understand, when it was used first. Earlier examples of the same etymology are You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (a woman-caller or a crier, a caller).
I'm not sure about that first letter either. It looks a bit like the Veeish letter in the previous word and something like a "p", which is the same problem with the shapes on the last line. There are shapes that look like "v" but also look like "p" with the descender wiped out. It also looks a bit like an Anglo-Saxon "r".
And the third letter in "umen" is ambiguous, as well.
But the last three letters read to me like "pfer" and it would not be unusual for someone in the medieval ages to drop the "d" from the end of pferd if they were writing the word horse, considering how things were often spelled, and also because it's sometimes spoken that way, without the "d" being completely distinct. There are dialects in parts of Germany and Scandinavia where they characteristically drop the last sound from many words, just as many Americans say, "I'm goin' ridin',"—the ending "g" isn't pronounced at all.
RE: 116v - Anton - 21-03-2017
My favourite (though unconfirmed) for the last word is "zifer". But I doubt whether that comma-like shape can be regarded as letter "i".
Anyway, I think the last three letters are most certainly "fer".
RE: 116v - Searcher - 21-03-2017
A billy goat's liver, a red horse and goat's milk would likely be a good composition for a medieval magic
I thought about all this. If the first word really means billy goat's liver, if the whole marginalia is a recipe of something, so which associations could be with this? Liver is often associated with blood and red or brown colour. Looking on the word r/v/po**fer, I am rather inclined to the variant with the first letter "r", therefore unintentionally words "Rot" and latin suffix "-fer" come to my mind, "Rotfer" could be something like "Rubrifer" (giving the red) in Latin, but, unfortunately, it looks likely as "rot*fer", where an asterisk visually can be p, v, r or i'. As was suggested by many, the third word of the first line can be kupfer, but was noted that the first letter is not "k", as well, there is an unwanted stroke in the center of the word. I think, this problem can be solved, if we read it as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (red copper). Possibly, the central character stands for two intentionally connected or superimposed each other letters t and c. In this case, we get "rotcufer" or "rotcpfer". As many people claim that dropped letters is a less problem and quite possible, letters p or v could be dropped, but I think, in this case, it is even not necessary.
The word Kupfer had many variants of spelling in different regions of the medieval Europe: kupffer, kopfer, cupfer, kufer or cufer.
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Sometimes, kufer or kofer could mean a copper vat.
At first sight, it is strange, of course, what a recipe can contain such ingredients, as a liver, copper and milk. Recipe of a remedy, of a pigment?
I have a supposition that it relates to alchemy after all. Possibly, it is just masked, therefore looks so meaningless. Copper (rotcupfer), liver of sulphur (poxleber) and milk of sulphur (gasmi[l]ch) are components of an alchemical solution. I think the red copper is a red precipitate of copper oxide.
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As well, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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RE: 116v - Searcher - 23-03-2017
My new interpretation of the marginalia on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (not first and, probably, not last) without doubt contains a portion of imagination, and, maybe, this is only way to understand it. Anyway, I feel that it makes much more sense with this interpretation. Some of the words were interpreted by me earlier and I think, they could perfectly fit now. As well, interpretation of the two words (poxleber and gasmich) is based on the proposition of German-speaking researchers, including Rene Zandbergen.
I put my almost literal interpretation below (as much as I can identify the text):
Poxleber umen[s] (umon) rotcufer (voti'fer)
anchiton ola dabas + miltos + t[un]c + tar cer[a]e + portas + N +
fix (six) + marix + morix + vix + al[m]a (ahia?) + ma+ria (ma+ma)
aror shey valzen ub[e]re[i]n. so nim[m] gasmi[l]ch O****
8 – stands for letter(s) s (and, possibly, z – as consonant to s)
You already saw my interpretations, they were very similar, but not the same. And the most important thing that has happened and excited great emotions of mine is a solution for the word "ola". It was like an eyesore and seemed to be superfluous in that place.
So, "ola" is not a pot (Lat. olla) and not an oil or an olive (Lat. oliva, olea, oleum). This word relates to the word You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., an unknown substance ("…lignum genus vel lingo simile, quanto plus arserit, tanto mundius inveniatur."), wich was used for incense on altars (Biblia Sacra). It is transliterated from Hebrew as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or olah, its meaning – burnt, burnt offering (holocaust) and rising, and, sometimes is interpreted as a gift and always relates to altar. Please, look to the links, they contain detailed and interesting information concerning this issue.
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At first glance, it would seem to be strange that there are even four languages are used (German, Latin, transliterated Greek and Hebrew) in the marginalia. But the connection between sacrificial wood-similar "anchiton"-incense and "ola" – burnt offering is incredibly obvious.
Now I can't say for sure, whether this is a description of a sacrificial ritual (with burning of animals or their organs) or some alchemical recipe with allegorical terms.
Translation of my interpretation into English (taking into account both possibilities):
The liver of a goat moisturizing / moist (umens) the red (pure) copper (rotcupfer).
You gave anchiton (unknown substance, incense?) burnt (or burnt offering) + red ochre (hematite, rubric Sinopica = iron oxide) / minium (lead oxide), then (you) bring tar to wax + N
… (in this case, I suppose, this line to be numbers (perhaps, N – numeri), i. e. quantity or ratio of the components, ciphered in some way, using letters of Latin alphabet. 6 components - 6 "words" in this line.)
{aror shey} to grind / to roll (valzen = walzen) over it (uberein). So take goat's milk
O**** (probably, this also means number)
As I wrote in the previous post, liver of a goat may mean an alchemical "liver of sulphur" (Hepar Sulphuris, ammonia sulphide), the next word is possibly Lat. umen[s], although, for example, "ammon" would be clearer
.In turn, milk of a goat could be "milk of sulphur" (Lac Sulhuris, Lac Virginis, sublimed sulphur, schwefelmilch, etc.).
The second variant of my interpretation differs by the first (title?) line and the third line explanation):
The goat's liver for you (Greek umon) sacrificial (Lat. voti*fer?, votisfer?)
You gave anchiton (unknown substance, incense?) burnt (or burnt offering) + red ochre (hematite, rubric Sinopica = iron oxide) / minium (lead oxide), then (you) bring tar to wax + N[omen]
… (in this case, the third line can be really a charm without translation)
{aror shey} to grind / to roll (valzen = walzen) over it (uberein). So take goat's milk O**** (?)
I'm not surprised, if the scribe uses the ancient Greek word miltos, since he uses no less rare ancient Greek word anchiton. "Ola" could be known to him from the Bible (if this word wasn't translated into the other language, but was transliterated into Latin alphabet). I can make a conclusion that the scribe of these marginalia spoke some German dialect, knew Latin, possibly, Hebrew, and Greek or/and had access to ancient documents or to their copies.[/i]
RE: 116v - Anton - 23-03-2017
That "Ola" looks good. What would "dabas" be? Second person singular of "dare"? It's present tense, so not "gave" but "give". Neither it's imperative. I'm a bit confused who gives what and to whom.
If someone gives "ola" to "anchiton", or "anchiton" to "ola", or "anchiton" gives "ola" to someone else, then would not some preposition be appropriate here?
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 23-03-2017
I also think ola as incense looks good and does fit well with lignum.
As another [remote] possibility...
I noticed this quite a while ago but didn't blog or post about it because I couldn't find any corroboration for it anywhere else on page 116r, but in Latvian, "ola dabas" means roughly "natural egg" which could be interpreted as raw egg in English.
If this were a list of ingredients and if pox leber were goat liver, it might fit, but... there's no indication anywhere else in these four lines that the text is Latvian. There's plenty of Latin and German-like text, but the other words (like "portas" or "oladabas" or "ola dabas") lean more toward Spanish or even Greek than Latvian, so I am skeptical that there could be any Latvian in here and it's probably a coincidence.
RE: 116v - Searcher - 23-03-2017
(23-03-2017, 02:25 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That "Ola" looks good. What would "dabas" be? Second person singular of "dare"? It's present tense, so not "gave" but "give". Neither it's imperative. I'm a bit confused who gives what and to whom.
"Dabas" - a verb "dare" (Lat.), second person singular, imperfect indicative active tense.
Dare - to give, to make a gift, to immolate.
Personal pronomen is not necessary in Latin, it always is implied. I think, "anchiton ola" means "burnt anchiton" or "burnt offering of anchiton". Therefore:
"You immolated anchiton in a burnt offering" or "You gave burnt (or rising) anchiton".
In this case, construction is absolutely correct. As for the question: Why "you"? I think, it can be acceptable form of instruction.