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+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - -JKP- - 08-09-2016
(08-09-2016, 01:45 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@Marco:
Thx. Although it's not too good that the circular object escaped us this time. I wonder why a capital letter in "Und" is used in the middle of the text.
If the first letter is capital "F", then the word is simply "Fuer" = English "for".
Yes, fuer can be "für" in German (the e is sometimes substituted for the umlaut and vice versa).
RE: 116v - Helmut Winkler - 08-09-2016
(08-09-2016, 01:19 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.While I was at it, I decided I might as well transcribe the first part also (this too is quick and dirty, but at least it's a start):
+Aurea+Oxasichen+Italia nomina dei scripta imanulo [Emanuel?] argentea ar? Iaspide [Jasper] Z rus Iaspide parum radicis parme sigust aurit eis? Illa Epilenticus demarbo Caduca liberahit-+debalgut+Guttam+Jalachim+Siquoth Getharia +per? Seam parta urit Imprelio +per? invictus arit+anaphetes+acphat+aphatan+Esteana namen dei ineffabile per quod iasue [Jesus] deviant sapten rages Z fecit stare/stane solam si quoth supersa Illud gestaurit in victus per marebit Z Carcereum retiner ranum/ranerum poterit+anchianada+basa+si quoth uro/uno Illud namen super se gestaurit Iram ase re?p ellit Z leliciam addit+Gadeoy
And suddenly I realize what "Iran" might be in the previous quotation. It's probably "Iram" (as it is here) which would be the Biblical name Hiram.
Okay, now I have to get to work. No more VMS fun until this evening (or my lunch break).
+ Aurea + Oxasichen + capitalia nomina dei scripta in anulo argenteo a lappide et sub lappide parum radicis parme si gustauerit axilla epilanticus de morbo caduca liberabitur + debalgut + Guttam + Malachim + Si quis hac nomina super scripta portauerit uicit in prelio super inuictus erit + Anaphetes +acphat + aphatan + Est aaa nomen dei ineffabile per quod Iosue deuincit septem rages et fecit sanctam solam si quis super sacellus gestaverit inuictus permanebit. Et carcereum retinam nuncupatam (?) [si] po[r]tauerit + Anchianada + basa + Si quis uero illud nomina super se gestauerit Iram a se reppellit et leticiam addit + Gadeoy
Not sure of everything and I don't understand some of it, but should be more or less correct
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 08-09-2016
Thank you, Helmut.
As I mentioned it was a rough first pass for me (and I was in a hurry to get out the door) and it usually takes me about three or four passes to get a decent transcription (especially when it's several languages mixed together in a hand I haven't yet studied) so I was hoping someone would clean it up and smooth out the edges.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 08-09-2016
I haven't had/taken time to learn his handwriting yet (I'll give that some effort tonight after work) but I glanced through a few pages and notice he frequently leaves out spaces between words, which fits with how you spaced your transcription, as well. For example, he writes "salnoct-n9" for sol nocturnus.
As for spelling, it's rare to see "sol" written with an "a". The distinction between "a" and "o" is small but he definitely writes the vowel as an "a" (distinctly different from the following "o") which is not what one usually sees for "sol". Most ancient languages use an "o" symbol (or "o" with a dot inside or "o" written as a spiral) to represent the sun, and most medieval languages spell it with an "o".
I am struck by how similar some of his "u" shapes look to the VMS mystery vowel in "putpfer" but otherwise, there's very little similarity in handwriting other than the fact that both are in c. 15th century Gothic cursive in a mixture of Latin and German. The hands are definitely different—the VMS hand is thinner, less bold, more upright, and less curvy and individual letters like v, x and h (and the backbone and foot of the ell) are distinctly different.
RE: 116v - Oocephalus - 09-09-2016
Anton:
Quote:Excellent! The cheek is the right place to write a spell if one's teeth ache. Do you have any idea why the "tintten" is "einer" and not simply "tintten"?Not really, but it sounds more like he means a specially made ink, not just any ink. At least that's what I would interpret this as in modern German, I don't know if this would have been true in the 15th century.
I agree with Helmut Winkler in that I don't see any close relation of the dialect to Dutch. I searched for the form "das Wang" in Google Books, and all the instances I found are from Bavaria or Austria.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 09-09-2016
(09-09-2016, 01:49 AM)Oocephalus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Anton:
Quote:Excellent! The cheek is the right place to write a spell if one's teeth ache. Do you have any idea why the "tintten" is "einer" and not simply "tintten"?Not really, but it sounds more like he means a specially made ink, not just any ink. At least that's what I would interpret this as in modern German, I don't know if this would have been true in the 15th century.
I agree with Helmut Winkler in that I don't see any close relation of the dialect to Dutch. I searched for the form "das Wang" in Google Books, and all the instances I found are from Bavaria or Austria.
... I'm thinking maybe Lombardy because of the way German and Italian are blended in some of the charms—this combination is very characteristic of Lombardy, which was sandwiched in between Bavaria and the northern Italian states but which was mostly (but not entirely) German- and Lombardic-speaking in the 15th century.
Old German and old Lombardic were more similar than than they are now. German has become more standardized and distinct, and modern Lombardic, because of its close association with Italy over the centuries, has been infused with many Italian words.
It's also possible that it's southern German and he just happened to know Italian (or was consulting Italian sources and kept some of the words).
RE: 116v - MarcoP - 09-09-2016
Thank you JKP and Helmut!
Here is a version mostly identical to Helmut's.
+ Aurea + Oxasichey + et alia nomi[n]a
dei sc[ri]pta i[n] anulo arge[n]teo cu[m] jaspide et sub
jaspide paru[m] radicis porme [pone?] si gustav[er]it ex illa
epilanticus de mo[r]bo Caduco lib[er]abitur + das
algut + Guttam + Malachim + Si q[ui]s hac no[m]ina
super secum po[r]tavi[n]t i[n] prelio s[em]p[er] i[n]victus erit + Anap=
hetes + acphot + aphaton + Est ea[n]a[?] nome[n]
dei ineffabile per q[uo]d Josue devicit septe[m] reges
et fecit sc[l]a[v]a[m] salem si q[ui]s sup[er] se illud gestav[er]it
invictus p[er]man[n]ebit et Carce[r] eum r[et]tine[re] non is[?]
pote[r]it + Anchianada + basa + si q[ui]s v[er]o illud
nome[n] sup[er] se gestav[er]it jram a se reppellit
et leticiam addit + Geduoy
My translation.
The two slashes // mark what I interpret as "spell boundaries". Apparently, this paragraph contains four different incantations.
+ Aurea + Oxasichey + and the other names
of god written in a silver ring with jasper and under
the jasper put a little piece of a root; if one eats of it,
he will be freed from epilepsy, the illness that makes you fall // +
dasalgut + Guttam + Malchim + If one takes with himself
these names, he will never be won in battle. // +
Anaphetes + Acphot + Aphaton + is the unspeakable
name of god by means of which Joshua defeated seven kings
and enslaved [Jeru]salem; if one wears it upon himself,
he will remain undefeated and jail will not be able to
detain him. // + Anchianada + basa + truly, if one wears
that name upon himself, he will avoid anger
and will achieve happiness + Geduoy
RE: 116v - Koen G - 09-09-2016
Very interesting, Marco, these seem to make sense. It is good to get an understanding of what we might expect in these kinds of spells.
I wonder what would happen if two people take with them the names "dasalgut + Guttam + Malchim" and fight each other...
RE: 116v - MarcoP - 09-09-2016
(09-09-2016, 02:10 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... I'm thinking maybe Lombardy because of the way German and Italian are blended in some of the charms—this combination is very characteristic of Lombardy, which was sandwiched in between Bavaria and the northern Italian states but which was mostly (but not entirely) German- and Lombardic-speaking in the 15th century.
Old German and old Lombardic were more similar than than they are now. German has become more standardized and distinct, and modern Lombardic, because of its close association with Italy over the centuries, has been infused with many Italian words.
Hi JKP,
these observations are very interesting to me! I would appreciate if you could clarify a few points:
A. What do you mean by "Lombardy" here? Could you please name the main cities making part of it in the XV Century?
B. Wasn't Switzerland the region sandwiched in between Bavaria and Northern Italy?
C. Could you point me to XV Century manuscripts exhibiting the blend of German and Italian you are speaking of?
I always thought that the Alps made a physical barrier between Italian-speaking areas and German-speaking areas.
In his recent Voynich article, Alain Touwaide mentions the German color annotation "rot" on f4r. He writes that it "does not seem to be compatible with a Northern Italian origin of the [Voynich] manuscript". So apparently his opinion is that German is extremely rare in XV Century manuscripts written in Northern Italy (i.e. South of the Alps).
(09-09-2016, 02:10 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's also possible that it's southern German and he just happened to know Italian (or was consulting Italian sources and kept some of the words).
If the subject is Buitzruss' notebook Clm 671, I don't think there is reason to doubt the essay mentioned You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (“Fifteenth-Century Medicine and Magic at the University of Heidelberg”, Elisabeth I. Wade-Sirabian): the manuscript was written in Heidelberg.
I think I have seen a single Italian sentence in 100 pages. About 0.1%.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 09-09-2016
(09-09-2016, 09:35 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(09-09-2016, 02:10 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....A. What do you mean by "Lombardy" here? Could you please name the main cities making part of it in the XV Century?
These are good questions and I can't answer all of them before I have to get back to work, so I'll start with what I mean by Lombardy...
I think of "Lombardy" as a tide moving out and receding back again, similar to the expansion and recession of the Roman Empire.
There was a significant loss of population around the Mediterranean a few centuries after the Roman Empire ended and opportunistic northerners from southern Scandinavia took advantage of the decline to colonize parts of what we now call northern Italy, all the way into western Austria and eastern Spain, along with pockets around Naples and Salerno and the Greek islands (some moved as far as south Africa along the northern coast but I haven't looked into that yet). At one point Lombardy included Rome and Vienna.
The Lombards sacked Padua and it was rebuilt in succeeding centuries, then ruled by Franks, etc. In the 13th century, the Schwabian Holy Roman Emperor ruled the Lombardic regions and Sicily and founded the now-famous university in Padua (which is also well-known for its botanical garden).
So it was like a tide sweeping down through Italy. Some warfare was involved but their success was largely due to the fact that they encountered less resistance due to lower populations at the time. The flowering of Salerno and the beginning of the herbal manuscript tradition happened during Lombardic rule (which, quite frankly, is the only reason I bothered studying Lombardy). As the Salerno medical school grew and evolved, they started creating their own manuscripts (and illustrating ones that had formally been only text) rather than just copying the old Greek and Arabic textual sources. These manuscripts moved to south-central Europe, mostly to the areas colonized by Lombards and Schwabians (what we now call northern Italy).
So, the Alps were not a barrier between Italy and Germany in those days because the germanic tribes occupied northern Italy. Lombardy included Venice and Rome and the Schwabians came to rule Verona and Padua, etc. Just as the Roman Empire used to reach beyond the borders of what we now call Pakistan, the germanic tribes ruled much farther south than they do now, and those in the Mediterranean kept in touch with their associates in the north.
Egerton 747 is thought to be from Salerno/Naples and Sloane 4016 is identified as being from Lombardy. The Manfredus Codex is also from a Lombardic region as is a 14th-century copy of the Tacuinum sanitatis. Geographically, much of the "herbal tradition" skipped over the central Italian states and went hand-to-hand from the Salerno/Naples area to the communities in and around Venice/Padua/Verona (formerly part of the receding Lombardy).
-----
Consider this as a related issue... there are Ghibelline merlons in the VMS rosette images. Ghibelline and Guelf are Italianized versions of German names: the Schwabian Wibellingens and the Welfs. They came south down through Lombardy to rule and battle one another over religious/power differences between the Pope and the aspiring rulers of the Holy Roman Empire who were springing up in the north. This happened earlier than the VMS, but the political struggle continued (even as Lombardy receded), until the 14th century, and Ghibelline merlons were a symbol of power and political leanings just as the Rebel flag in the U.S. is a symbol of long-ago hostilities between the north and the south. The merlons were not a mere architectural variation in those days, they signified a person's alliances, just as a coat of arms signaled their family alliances.
Also on the rosettes page, many people notice the Ghibelline merlons, but they don't seem to comprehend the importance of the saddleback roofs. They are almost as significant as the merlons! Saddlebacks with the flag on each end were a very specific architectural style that is hard to find outside of certain areas in the 15th century. France, southern Switzerland, Bavaria, a few of the northern Italian (Lombardic) states, and some of the Lombardic and German colonies in the Greek islands are the major areas where you find flagged saddlebacks. Since people walked in the 15th century, it was important to know where to enter a city, or you could end up walking a lot of extra miles. Each culture had a slightly different way of indicating a portal and flagged saddlebacks were primarily Frankish and germanic.
![[Image: Saddleback2.jpg]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Saddleback2.jpg)
![[Image: Saddleback1.jpg]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Saddleback1.jpg)
![[Image: Saddleback3.jpg]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Saddleback3.jpg)
Thus, the architectural details in the VMS are very specific cultural signals (and possibly landmarks) related to the same geographic area as many of the 14th and 15th century herbals.
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So, to get back to the previous line of thought... there appear to be several direct links between herbal manuscripts and the Lombards/Salerno/Naples in the south and the Lombards in the north around Venice, Verona, Padua (Lombardy and former Lombardy) jumping over many of the Italian states in between.
But the tide was receding. Just as the Holy Roman Empire was shrinking, so was Lombardy. As Lombardic and Schwabian influence receded, Rome and Vienna, and the lands in between, were gradually recaptured by the Italian states, but many of the colonists remained in those areas and assimilated and many documents remained as well (e.g., documents in the Vatican library).
Lombardy is now about half as big as it was in the first two centuries of the migration/colonization. The Lombardic language is being supplanted by Italian (and may soon be extinct).
I have no specific interest in the Lombards other than the fact that they had direct associations with herbal manuscripts and their transmission. I noticed the geographic connections between the Salerno and other Lombard-region herbals a few years ago and started trying to trace the specific people who might have brought them north, hoping to unearth more of the VMS provenance.
Okay, gotta run, lunch over. More later.