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+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - Anton - 07-09-2016
I think that's "schreib" (imperative for "write!"). And not "tiutter" but "hutter" - either from "hueter" - guardian, or from "hut" - hat.
The ending seems to read: "3 pater noster und 3 ave maria".
***
But the most interesting is the stuff before "er"
Maybe Helmut can discern what's there?
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 07-09-2016
(07-09-2016, 09:24 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The most interesting is the stuff before "er"
Maybe Helmut can discern what's there?
I'm puzzled about that too.
It's a pilcrow followed by something that vaguely looks like urtuer (with the 2 as the "ur" abbreviation and the - over the t as an "r").
The 2 shape that's a bit like the VMS leaning-r is a Latin abbreviation for ur or tur but it sometimes stands in for other things.
RE: 116v - Anton - 07-09-2016
The more I look at the screenshot that Marco provided the more interesting it seems in relation to f116v.
Re-considering the header of the spell, I think it's "... schreib an daz wag mit eine® hutte®" - namely, one should write (the spell) with his hat (why not?) - where? - "an daz wag". One of the meanings of "wag" in MHD is "streaming water", "flood". "Warg" I found only in the brothers Grimm with the meaning of "übelthäter, unhold, ungeheuer" which is not promising. But "passing water" is.
So, one should write the spell with his hat in the passing water. Very good.
The ending was not difficult to reconstruct for me, cause it's pretty the same as I quoted You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in Section 2, from Cod. Sang. 754: "Und sprich den siben pater noster un siben ave maria" - which seems to be kinda template ending of a magic ritual.
So here the ending is most likely (as I already wrote above): "3 pater noster und 3 ave maria", hence the preceding word is most likely some abbreviated form of "sprich" or "schprich" (imperative for "say"), and the yet preceding word would be "und". Indeed, the ending of that word looks exactly like the abbreviated "und" elsewhere in this text. Hence, the beginning of that word is probably not related to its ending - in other words, those are two different portions of text suffering from the absence of a space.
But what's that beginning? It's... a circular shape!! (if you know what I mean).
***
probably we'd better disable autocorrection of a bracketed r into a registered trademark...
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 07-09-2016
I'm still trying to figure out if zant might mean Zahn (tooth or teething). With "schwerig" after it, teething seems more likely (unless "zant" is something besides tooth).
So, it says for this "zant" (tooth?) difficulty, "write on a warg/wrag? with a tintter? [the following charm]...".
I wonder if that's something other than a "w" at the beginning of warg/wrag?
Either way, it's 1) the malady 2) write on something with something 3) the incantation to write.
RE: 116v - Anton - 08-09-2016
Quote:something that vaguely looks like urtuer (with the 2 as the "ur" abbreviation and the - over the t as an "r").
I looked at the other screenshots of this MS provided by Marco above and see that this shape is used in other places - even in different words.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 08-09-2016
(08-09-2016, 12:11 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The 2 shape is a common abbreviation in Latin.Quote:something that vaguely looks like urtuer (with the 2 as the "ur" abbreviation and the - over the t as an "r").
I looked at the other screenshots of this MS provided by Marco above and see that this shape is used in other places - even in different words.
What I'm not sure of is how he's using it.
For example, he uses the line over letters to mean "r" most of the time, when in Latin it usually means "m" or "n" (also in German, depending on the scribe), so he has his own way of doing things, but he does it pretty consistently.
?? for such-and-such difficulty, write on a ____ with _____ [this incantation] and write the name _____ and say? 3 pater noster and 3 ave maria.
RE: 116v - Anton - 08-09-2016
Quote:But I don't think it says "hutte"
Agree. The "h" elsewhere has an ascending loop, and this one does not.
Alas. Writing with a hat would have been a breakthrough in magic.
The "i" matches, but the supposed "t" does not match very well - that's what confuses me. And "tiutter" is not found in dictionaries.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 08-09-2016
(08-09-2016, 12:17 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:But I don't think it says "hutte"
Agree. The "h" elsewhere has an ascending loop, and this one does not.
Alas. Writing with a hat would have been a breakthrough in magic.
The "i" matches, but the supposed "t" does not match very well - that's what confuses me. And "tiutter" is not found in dictionaries.
Nor is tintter and even the double-t when combined with those letters is not so common in medieval German but I'm pretty sure it is a double-t.
Hang on... could it be kritte? If so, that would mean chalk.
RE: 116v - Anton - 08-09-2016
Quote:I'm pretty sure it is a double-t
Me too. But this duplication is probably the result of declension (as in the case with the now obsolete "hat").
This word is something with which one writes (supposedly on water). What can be used for writing?
But that's not that very important, after all...
I see two important would-be-clues here: these two strange shapes - one in the beginning and the other is the circular shape which looks pretty like the one in the end of VMS f116v.
"Tinte" is ink in German, maybe that's a spelling variant or just a scribal error. Writing with ink is natural. What is not natural is writing with ink on water... maybe "wag" stands for something else still
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 08-09-2016
He's pretty clearly indicated there are missing letters in "wag" with that dash overhead and maybe that strange "t" with the straight leg is a "k".
If it says "schrieb an daz waeg mit ainer kritter "rax....." that would mean (in old northern German) write on a wall with chalk.
Normally one would expect to see instructions to write on paper or parchment or an amulet but the words simply don't match any of those.