+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
RE: 116v - Koen G - 02-09-2016
I looked into the possibility of the crosses meaning "et", since the word "et", and the signs "&" and "+" are all related. It is not impossible but it would be a very early attestation, since widespread adoption of the plus-sign came later than MS Beinecke 408.
RE: 116v - Searcher - 02-09-2016
Quote:Marco:
Following the National Geographic article linked by David, I interpret the diagram as the Antichrist ruling the world. I am not sure of what Izhim or Azhim means here, nor of the meaning of the cross above that word.
As the article says, the Antchrist has four horns, represented by the large cross in the diagram: Mentita dictas (mendacitas? / mendacity); Calliditas (cunning); Dolositas (deceit) ; Crudelitas (cruelty).
Quote:Anton:
That is not "z", but "r". Hence "ihrim" or somethimg like that.
Hi!
Thanks for the responses and reference. I looked on the "r"s in the other words as "Crudelitas" and "Israhel" etc., therefore decided that it is rather "z", but I see that, probably, it is the "r" in abbreviations, so, maybe, "+" is a part of an abbreviation?!
The same word is in the "channel" to Israel: Vener[i]t i Ihr+m ab gog". Maybe, this is a name or mean the same as below?!
P. S. "Mentita deitas" = False divinity.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 02-09-2016
(02-09-2016, 04:54 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Another fragment from ms You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. It mixes Latin and German in a very interesting way.
Both "venom" and "pulmon" have been mentioned for the third word in line 1.
I think the title reads "Cont[ra] venen[um]" (against venom), but I am far from sure
The underlined line at the bottom reads "Sanguine[m] de pulmo[n]e agni" (lamb lung blood).
Marco, I was reading some of the charms and recipes in Clm 726 and noticed the following on folio 44r:
"Dem das hirn schwindat odar gar verschwunden der ist dar ass dik gersten mel mit gaismilch gemischt er gerist."
Putting this into slightly more readable German (not modern or proper German, but expansion of some of the truncated words so they are more recognizable in German), I get the following:
Dem das [ge]hirn schwindlig oder gar* verschwunden der ist dar essen dicke gersten mehl mit geissmilch gemischt er gereist.
Note that "gar" is Norse for to go or to become and gereist is both Norse and German for to travel/to get up (in the morning or from bed)/to get around.
Which in quick-and-dirty literal translation means:
One/Those who brain dizzy (become) or faint/become unconscious, eat thick barley flour with goat's-milk mixed he can travel/becomes ambulatory/is able to get around/recovers.
But translates more comfortably to:
[For] one who becomes faint or unconscious, eat thick barley flour mixed with goat's milk [porridge], he will recover.
It caught my attention, of course, because of the similarity of "gaismilch" to the VMS "gas mich". Some have suggested "goose milk" as a possible reading of f116 but I was never very comfortable with that suggestion because geese don't give milk. If it does intend to say "goat's milk" (rather than something like "gave me" for "gaf mich" if it's an "f" rather than a long-s) then the dropping of sounds is either some regional dialect or the writer is not a native German speaker (which I've suspected from the beginning since the marginalia is quirky and never completely correct German).
RE: 116v - ReneZ - 03-09-2016
(02-09-2016, 11:43 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco, I was reading some of the charms and recipes in Clm 726 and noticed the following on folio 44r:
"Dem das hirn schwindat odar gar verschwunden der ist dar ass dik gersten mel mit gaismilch gemischt er gerist."
Putting this into slightly more readable German (not modern or proper German, but expansion of some of the truncated words so they are more recognizable in German), I get the following:
Dem das [ge]hirn schwindlig oder gar* verschwunden der ist dar essen dicke gersten mehl mit geissmilch gemischt er gereist.
Note that "gar" is Norse for to go or to become and gereist is both Norse and German for to travel/to get up (in the morning or from bed)/to get around.
Very nice example.
Just a note: 'gar' is a perfectly fine German word, mostly used in 'gar nicht' where it ephasises the 'not' strongly, becoming 'not at all', and also in: 'oder gar' which I would translate as: 'or even' (minor emphasis).
After the Mondragone presentation of Johannes Albus I had been looking for recipes involving goat liver, which exist since antiquity and have to do with bad eyesight. Never looked too much for goat milk. It would seem to be of interest.
RE: 116v - Koen G - 03-09-2016
With intensifiers like gar it is especially important to check whether they were used as such in the relevant period. Evolving intensifiers are one of the motors of lexical change.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 03-09-2016
Thanks for the note on "gar", René. Now that you've pointed out its common use, it fits well. So in English we might say, "..feels faint or has completely passed out...".
RE: 116v - MarcoP - 03-09-2016
(02-09-2016, 10:21 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi!
Thanks for the responses and reference. I looked on the "r"s in the other words as "Crudelitas" and "Israhel" etc., therefore decided that it is rather "z", but I see that, probably, it is the "r" in abbreviations, so, maybe, "+" is a part of an abbreviation?!
The same word is in the "channel" to Israel: Vener[i]t i Ihr+m ab gog". Maybe, this is a name or mean the same as below?!
P. S. "Mentita deitas" = False divinity.
Thank you, Searcher! This is a very interesting manuscript, but I find it hard to make sense of it.
You are right about "Mentita deitas". Thank you for correcting me!
Thank you very much for your transcriptions and translations, JKP!
Being ignorant of German, this level of detail is immensely helpful to me!
In the attached image, I highlighted the "mel mit gaismilch" you have found.
For those who missed this bit, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (and possibly others) noted that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has marginalia which could contain "mel" as "mehl" (flour).
Can anybody shade some light on the "+" signs at the top of Clm 671 f44r?
(03-09-2016, 08:11 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.After the Mondragone presentation of Johannes Albus I had been looking for recipes involving goat liver, which exist since antiquity and have to do with bad eyesight. Never looked too much for goat milk. It would seem to be of interest.
Thank you, Rene! Could you find any manuscript with a recipe involving "pox leber"?
RE: 116v - ReneZ - 03-09-2016
(01-09-2016, 08:49 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you for adding the transcriptions, David!
I also noticed that famous 1954 Panofsky's letter mentioned. Rene, do you know if it was ever integrally published? It would be great to have an online scan
I always wondered if the 1990's summary we have always had, wasn't a bit telegraph-style, and thanks to some great help, this morning I got a copy of the full (3-page) response from Panofsky. I will need to check permission with the George C. Marshall foundation about putting it online , but I already updated the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Note that this also confirms the meaning of 'so' in "so nim geissmilch", namely 'then' in the context:
"in case (condition A) then (do B)".
I have seen plenty of examples where the part "in case" is equally written 'so'.
RE: 116v - -JKP- - 03-09-2016
(03-09-2016, 11:31 AM)Marco Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Can anybody shade some light on the "+" signs at the top of Clm 671 f44r?
That's where you make the sign of the cross while saying the incantation out loud. These are healing charms/spells. Notice they often invoke historic names passed down through the ages. Once charms became Christianized, the old Levantine and Greco-Roman names (usually gods and goddesses) were gradually supplanted with Christian names but some of the pre-Christian names are still included in the later medieval spells.
RE: 116v - Anton - 03-09-2016
Quote:Note that this also confirms the meaning of 'so' in "so nim geissmilch", namely 'then' in the context:
"in case (condition A) then (do B)".
I have seen plenty of examples where the part "in case" is equally written 'so'.
I mean that "squash it into paste" is neither a case nor a condition.