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+--- Thread: Big Red Weirdos (/thread-423.html)
RE: Big Red Weirdos - -JKP- - 26-02-2016
(26-02-2016, 09:46 PM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... It would be good to know the 'etymology' of the different usages. How could the symbol for 'Aries' have relevance to a marginal notation in a Spanish document, I wonder. What's the connection? Is there any connection?
What does the symbol mean in the Nahuatl mss?
I'm pretty sure it was used as a Pilcrow (Capitulum) in the Nahuatl manuscript.
RE: Big Red Weirdos - VViews - 27-02-2016
Hi Diane,
Unfortunately some of the links on Knox's site are down. I would really have liked to be able to read Stolfi's paper about what he call "big two" as well as Klaus Schröer's PDF. If any of the veterans around here have these it would be great if they could post them!
I understand what you're saying about etymology and aries not making sense as a paragraph marker, but to me it would be best if we could first gather the largest possible number of comparisons that are visually as similar as possible, and then think about what makes sense and how things connect once we have a large corpus, rather than dismiss things a priori.
I think it's useful to know that an aries or aries-looking symbol has been proposed as a possible comparison, and it is visually very similar, whatever the connection, so why not list it? Especially in an MS like the Voynich where aries seems to be a "doubly" special element.
Nahuatl... well, I personally don't think the Voynich has much to do with that culture, but again, it is very visually similar and it has been proposed, so why not list it? To me this is step 1, just casting as wide a net as possible.
Of course if you have specific images that you would like to contribute to such a list that would be great too: don't hesitate to add them to the thread!
About nota bene: Spanish keeps the Latin form, as well as the abbreviation N.B., but I have no idea what may have been the specific Spanish symbols for it in the past.
RE: Big Red Weirdos - -JKP- - 27-02-2016
The Nahuatl documents were written by scribes who were educated (as boys) by the Spanish missionaries, so it's a symbol that was likely brought over from the European monasteries.
RE: Big Red Weirdos - EllieV - 28-02-2016
(26-02-2016, 08:09 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hopefully more suggestions coming...
Here is a V with doodle on top from manuscript with music
RE: Big Red Weirdos - ReneZ - 28-02-2016
@VViews:
here is Stolfi's list of articles:
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and the one you were looking for is probably this one:
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I never heard of Klaus Schröer as far as I can remember.
RE: Big Red Weirdos - VViews - 28-02-2016
(28-02-2016, 01:24 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@VViews:
here is Stolfi's list of articles:
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and the one you were looking for is probably this one:
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I never heard of Klaus Schröer as far as I can remember.
Thanks Rene,
sadly no, that's not the one I'm looking for, as it only describes the v shaped weirdos.
Knox provides this description of the article I'm after, which appears to have been written later, but unfortunately the link appears to be broken:
"The third big red weirdo of f1r, Stolfi
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"
RE: Big Red Weirdos - MarcoP - 28-02-2016
(28-02-2016, 01:59 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Knox provides this description of the article I'm after, which appears to have been written later, but unfortunately the link appears to be broken:
"The third big red weirdo of f1r, Stolfi
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"
Hello VViews, the page is on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
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It's a site worth trying in cases like this.
RE: Big Red Weirdos - VViews - 28-02-2016
Thank you MarcoP!
The paint layer separation technique gives a whole new look to the symbol.
And I guess we can now add "upside down Chinese characters" to the list of what these weirdos may be, since Stolfi apparently believed all three to be inspired by them, as well as his concluding remarks that:
"it could be a Hindu monogram, analogous to the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Turned sideways, it could be a scribbled abbreviation "C~"for "Chapter", atop the Roman numeral "CII". Or..."
RE: Big Red Weirdos - -JKP- - 28-02-2016
(28-02-2016, 02:57 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
And I guess we can now add "upside down Chinese characters" to the list of what these weirdos may be, since Stolfi apparently believed all three to be inspired by them, as well as his concluding remarks that:
"it could be a Hindu monogram, analogous to the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Turned sideways, it could be a scribbled abbreviation "C~"for "Chapter", atop the Roman numeral "CII". Or..."
LOL!
Considering how common they are in medieval manuscript without rotating them in any direction, I find this rather "imaginative". I'm not averse to the idea of looking farther afield (it's an interesting journey) but there's no need to go far to find them.
The V-shape is found in Anglo-Saxon, Greek, and Latin manuscripts and the squiggle is a common abbreviation for "er" (sometimes "ir") and is used other ways, as well. I've seen the seagull in Spanish and Arabic documents (I think I may even have seen one in a Syrian document but unfortunately I didn't screensnap it so I'm not 100% certain) and the upper right one resembles many embellished initials, especially in some of the older documents, c. 13th or 14th century.
RE: Big Red Weirdos - Wladimir D - 29-02-2016
(26-02-2016, 04:09 PM)EllieV Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I see this part of the first page differently. There was an attempt of the alphabet rebounds, subsequently rinse.(26-02-2016, 02:30 AM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Inscription in the Gasthof Pider in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., (South Tyrol, Italy). Ladin: Ma bona ustaria, ma bella compagnia, düc la chir gion, vedli y jogn. - A good pub, a good companion, all search for a good time, old and young.
How old is this inscription? Was is written in modern times? I am interested in the style of the letter D - we have the same in the erased alphabet on the first page