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+--- Thread: Big Red Weirdos (/thread-423.html)
Big Red Weirdos - VViews - 26-02-2016
Hi everyone,
Because we don't know what the red weirdos on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are, I wasn't sure whether to put this thread in the text, imagery or marginalia sections, so I am posting it here.
I'm starting this thread so we can share our views about these, because whatever they are, they seem important, since they are on the very first page and have been made so very noticeable by the author.
Also, it seems that the one on the upper right side of the page has received rather less attention than the other two, although to me it might just be the most interesting one, because of its position and because it doesn't bear much similarity to the other two.
Here's a page made by Knox, which provides quite a few comparisons as well as links to various sites where they have been discussed in the past:
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That was two years ago...
I'm curious to hear what views the forum members may have about what the weirdos are or look like, and whether perhaps we might gather any new insight into them.
Any thoughts?
RE: Big Red Weirdos - -JKP- - 26-02-2016
I've seen those shapes quite frequently in Mediterranean, Spanish, Latin, and Greek texts from the 16th century and earlier.
The squiggle above the V-shape is a very common Latin and Greek abbreviation (especially Latin) and was familiar to literate Europeans of the time. The seagull character is sometimes used as a pilcrow character in Spanish documents and serves another purpose in Mediterranean documents. The top-right symbol isn't as common, but I've come across that one as well (I can't remember where, I would have to look at my notes).
I'm pretty sure they don't mean the same thing in the VMS as they do in other contexts, but the shapes themselves were not unfamiliar to medieval scribes. I think the VMS author coopted familiar shapes for other purposes, sometimes with slight modifications.
RE: Big Red Weirdos - VViews - 26-02-2016
If you do find those notes about that top right one, it would be great to see them!
The closest match I have found for it is in this picture (letter V - first character of the last line) although it seems to be a recent inscription so this example is probably completely anachronistic, and also is missing the lower flourish found in the Voynich weirdo:
![[Image: Ladin2_K.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Ladin2_K.jpg)
Inscription in the Gasthof Pider in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., (South Tyrol, Italy). Ladin: Ma bona ustaria, ma bella compagnia, düc la chir gion, vedli y jogn. - A good pub, a good companion, all search for a good time, old and young.
Maybe others won't find them similar at all. I find it interesting that all three weirdos could give the impression of being based on variously stylized letter V's, although I don't think they play the role of actual V's. Anyway, I'd love to hear other opinions and interpretations of this one and the others!
RE: Big Red Weirdos - EllieV - 26-02-2016
(26-02-2016, 02:30 AM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Inscription in the Gasthof Pider in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., (South Tyrol, Italy). Ladin: Ma bona ustaria, ma bella compagnia, düc la chir gion, vedli y jogn. - A good pub, a good companion, all search for a good time, old and young.
How old is this inscription? Was is written in modern times? I am interested in the style of the letter D - we have the same in the erased alphabet on the first page
RE: Big Red Weirdos - VViews - 26-02-2016
(26-02-2016, 04:09 PM)EllieV Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(26-02-2016, 02:30 AM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Inscription in the Gasthof Pider in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., (South Tyrol, Italy). Ladin: Ma bona ustaria, ma bella compagnia, düc la chir gion, vedli y jogn. - A good pub, a good companion, all search for a good time, old and young.
How old is this inscription? Was is written in modern times? I am interested in the style of the letter D - we have the same in the erased alphabet on the first page
I found it on the Wikipedia page for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., and have no idea how old it is.
It might be a recent retracing of something older on the wall, or even a copy of a text from an MS, who knows... I wish I could give you a better reply but I have no clue.
I also like how the M's look slightly gallows-y, a bit like EVA "k" characters...
RE: Big Red Weirdos - EllieV - 26-02-2016
I agree with you that the glyphs on the first page resemble some cursive initials found in the old manuscripts.
RE: Big Red Weirdos - VViews - 26-02-2016
Thanks for these pictures Ellie... are these all versions of capital V's as well? Some seem to be, others I can't tell...
RE: Big Red Weirdos - EllieV - 26-02-2016
(26-02-2016, 05:37 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks for these pictures Ellie... are these all versions of capital V's as well? Some seem to be, others I can't tell...
Hi VViews, actually none of them is V - these are Rs and Bs
RE: Big Red Weirdos - VViews - 26-02-2016
(26-02-2016, 07:28 PM)EllieV Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(26-02-2016, 05:37 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks for these pictures Ellie... are these all versions of capital V's as well? Some seem to be, others I can't tell...
Hi VViews, actually none of them is V - these are Rs and Bs
Oh! Haha, just when I think I'm onto something... So it looks like so far the candidates are:
Various Cursive Initials
Pilcrow characters
Abbreviation symbols (if I read JKP's point correctly?)
Hopefully more suggestions coming...
Why place the top-right one where it is? Could this shape be a residue from some type of stamp or seal, that was painted over by a later owner?
RE: Big Red Weirdos - Diane - 26-02-2016
VViews,
Thanks to the link to Knox's page.
It would be good to know the 'etymology' of the different usages. How could the symbol for 'Aries' have relevance to a marginal notation in a Spanish document, I wonder. What's the connection? Is there any connection?
What does the symbol mean in the Nahuatl mss?
Is that the same as its meaning elsewhere?
I don't think we should class those with the 'rising flame' with those which have none; it's obviously a meaningful element in the whole. And when you have the bird above it, I'd say it forms a new sort of glyph, not an "Aries plus".
Does anyone with Spanish know why that symbol was used as a sort of "N.B." sign?